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A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

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Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#511

Post by ceejayoz »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #430
ceejayoz wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abusers sometimes take their victims elsewhere - new doc, new town, new state - when people start getting suspicious. The victim may also be retaliated against; accused of trying to get help. There’s a risk to consulting someone you suspect might be the perpetrator.

There's also a pretty big risk to assuming abuse when it isn't present , removing a child from their parents is an action causing great trauma to the child. Even just putting the family through an adversarial process where removal is threatened can be very traumatic to all involved. If there is a challenging health issue going on too, adding all that on top is actually adding barriers to addressing the challenging he…

There's no perfect answer; there will always be judgement calls that turn out to be wrong, even when made in good faith. You're correct that false accusations of abuse can be devastating to families; missing real abuse is similiarly devastating.

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I'm glad I don't have to make these calls.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#512

Post by smolder »

Clubber wrote: post #333
smolder wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "lest" is meant to come after something else. It means "for fear that" or "or else" or something similar. So it's not clear what you're trying to say. I don't know what "very systems" built by "the most evil" you mean either. Is it supposed to be obvious what you're referring to?

It's from a poem in 1897. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recessional_(poem)

I clicked the link and remain confused. The poem does have in common the term "lest we forget", but apparently nothing else. It's also used in a grammatically correct way in the poem, but not in your post, since it's not following anything.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#513

Post by dekhn »

ryandrake wrote: post #485
P_I_Staker wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, no bigger offender then the psychiatric and mental health community. There's a very sophisticated system for shutting down criticism and lashing out at patients that have civil rights concerns. They do a lot of mental gymnastics trying to run from the idea that their main function is to imprison and take away peoples rights, often without due process. Medical industry is rife with abuse. They ro…

Your comment reminds me of the Rosenhan Experiment[1]. "The first part involved the use of healthy associates or "pseudopatients" (three women and six men, including Rosenhan himself) who briefly feigned auditory hallucinations in an attempt to gain admission to 12 psychiatric hospitals in five states in the United States. All were admitted and diagnosed with psychiatric disorders. ... The second part of his study in…

My favorite control experiment! Tell somebody you did something and ask them what the results were, but don't actually do the something.

"Honey, I doubled the salt in the pasta this time, how does it taste?" "Oh, it's really salty". "Ha-HA! I didn't actually add ANY salt!"

(do not actually do this to people you like or who like you)

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#514

Post by DrThunder »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #505
stef25 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> was asked to live the room while he was questioned Is that even legal ? Anyone trying to get between my kids and I is going to have a very bad day.

Sorry, you think in a case where the doctor suspects abuse, they should have to ask the kid while the potential abuser stands there next to her?

Underage kids can't consult to really anything legally on their own. You cannot have a system where in certain cases they're treated as adults. I get what you're saying but I cannot believe that any good parent thinks this is ok.

This country has weird culture that's started happening in the last decade where the parents take a back seat and the government/institutions are taking their place. Suddenly, you're hearing schools, doctor's, etc. telling kids they should come to them and not trust their parents. It's terrifying as a parent. Parents should never have to give up their rights in the name of "safety".

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#515

Post by aidenn0 »

tokai wrote: post #405
raducu wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not know this detail, I know the Danish state offered apologies, the charges were dropped and the child was returned to the parents.

Yeah, nobody know the exact parts of the case. As its semi-secret (to protect the child and parents I guess). While the parents were cleared, this case is definitely not appropriate to this discussion as it was definitely not only hemorrhaging that started it. If a hospital gets a toddler with fractures on their skull, society should damn well figure out how it got them and stop it from happening again.

As a toddler, my daughter fell out of her bed from a height of less than 18 inches and broke her collar-bone. It seems plausible to me that if she had landed on her head rather than her shoulder, she could have fractured her skull. I'm not sure that society needs to be in the business of preventing all falls from such a small height!

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#516

Post by michael1999 »

stephen_g wrote: post #127

Amazing that bit about child welfare organisations fighting against the science, when clearly taking children away based on false accusations is clearly far worse for the child’s welfare, not to mention the parents’! It’s just incredible the injustice that can be done in the name of protecting children. I really do wonder if it’s cultural or some kind of innate psychological irrarionality that seems stronger in some…

Baby-stealing is a deep drive.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#517

Post by nickelcitymario »

stephen_g wrote: post #127

Amazing that bit about child welfare organisations fighting against the science, when clearly taking children away based on false accusations is clearly far worse for the child’s welfare, not to mention the parents’! It’s just incredible the injustice that can be done in the name of protecting children. I really do wonder if it’s cultural or some kind of innate psychological irrarionality that seems stronger in some…

I have some inside information on how this plays out in Ontario, Canada, at least. One of my family members was a lawyer for the regional Children's Aid, and I worked for him for a few years. Another family member was a child protection social worker for two decades, but retired early because they felt the organization didn't prioritize the welfare of children (as is their mandate) but rather the needs of the organization or (perhaps more realistically) the needs of their own careers.

MANY social workers feel this way. They got into the field out of a genuine concern for the well-being of the most vulnerable members of our society, and instead found themselves dealing with politics (both real and office).

I'm not sure how it is in other countries, but in my region, they actually appoint a lawyer for the child. This is great, but it also tells you a lot about what everyone else's priorities are that children need their own lawyers:

(1) Parents want their kids back, of course. Not all parents are fit to get them back. But their lawyers fight for the return of their kids regardless of circumstances or reasons for their removal.

(2) Child protection agencies are under constant attack, so at the executive level, they lose sight of the individual kids and are instead worried about the needs of the organization and public relations.

(3) The social workers themselves are handcuffed to do anything about it and have to follow procedure, even if they can see it plainly that the procedure is not in the best interests of the child.

(4) Police want nothing to do with any of it and are quick to wash their hands of these situations.

(5) The children's lawyer somehow has to represent the needs of the child, which may place them at odds with their own clients (the kids).

(6) Activist groups will generally support the parents blindly, because by law, for the privacy of the children, the only parties listed above who can publicly speak about any given case are the parents themselves. So you can only ever hear one side of the argument. That's right: If a father, for example, sexually abuses his kids and as a result has them removed, he's free to say just about anything he likes about the matter, without ever acknowledging that he's a child molester. The other parties can't say a thing about this.

As a result, it's impossible, as a member of the public, to ever know whether it was appropriate or not that the children were removed from the care of their parents. I happen to know, from first-hand experience, that it's a mixed bag: Some parents shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any child ever, much less their own. Others are victims of a system gone haywire. And we, the concerned public, can't have an informed discussion about any of it.

All in all, it transforms child protection into a game of who-has-the-best-lawyers rather than trying to do what's right for the kids. Is it any wonder so many kids end up traumatized by this system?

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#518

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

conductr wrote: post #277
stephen_g wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's especially bizarre because even apart from things like autism, even for more neurotypical people disassociation (which as I understand in mild forms can appear as emotional detachment which could come off as being calm) is a well known symptom of acute stress responses (i.e. psychological shock). As unreproducible as a lot of psychology is, putting any merit in 'they didn't respond how I think they "should" have…

I’m rather neurotypical but I worked in high trauma environments during my college years; ER, OR, ICU, various life and death situations on daily basis in a healthcare environment. I pretty much saw it all. That was 20+ years ago, my career was not there so I left clinical work but the ability to function during high stress and deal with the present mentally stuck with me. I also could mostly leave it at the door and…

When I was young my youngest brother walked across a large firepit barefoot (no one realized it was still hot, the neighbor had been burning wood and the like outside).

He experienced 3rd degree burns on his feet and my mother rushed him to the hospital. My stepfather at the time was basically freaking out, my mother was very calm. After it was over the thing she told us is that panicking in an emergency helps no one.

It's a lesson I've kept with me my entire life. Most of the time, for me to truly process things, I need to be alone. I have no doubt I would come across as detached and not caring if something tramautic were to happen to me.

OTOH, I had to put a pet down once and I was crying like a baby so maybe not. I've never been in a situation where I haven't had time to process before really speaking about it to others so I really am not sure what my response would be.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#519

Post by aidenn0 »

fusslo wrote: post #347

since everyone else is sharing an anecdote: When I was 14 or so I fell off my dirt bike and broke my arm, both bones in my forearm. Went to the hospital. About 5 people asked me how it happened taking about an hour, while I was WRITHING in pain. Finally, I complained to the right nurse and she got me something for the pain. It was just enough to stop crying, not enough to stop feeling it. I later found out that the i…

They may delay treatment for reasons other than just asking; my son was in the ER for 4 hours with a significant laceration (it resulted in two layers of over 2 dozen sutures each) before he was given anything as the nurses were not allowed to administer an analgesic (much less pain killers) until a doctor had examined him, and it took 4 hours for the doctor to get to him.

At no point was there any sign of the staff acting like there might be abuse or neglect involved.

Re: A journey into the shaken baby syndrome/abusive head trauma controversy

#520

Post by aidenn0 »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #504
danenania wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first inclination here is to blame the doctor. Per the Hippocratic Oath, doctors need to understand the implications of making reports like this and only do so in cases where there isn't reasonable doubt or plausible explanations other than abuse. Separating children from parents and making accusations like this is extremely traumatic in itself, so the evidence bar needs to be very high. Even if the rules tell doc…

I'm not sure if it's federal, but in my state a doctor is required to report anything they feel is unusual. Mandated reporter, it's called.

There's a federal act (CAPTA) that requires states to adopt mandatory reporting rules, but the rules vary from state-to-state. Some states, simply by being in a particular profession you are required to report (even when not on the job); in other states it's specifically when evidence is uncovered while performing your duties; in some states, all people are required to report.

I've never encountered a state in which a medical doctor encountering evidence of abuse while seeing a patient is not required to report it, with the exception of some states exempting mental-health professionals told things in confidence (so a psychiatrist, which is also an MD, might not be required to report it depending on the state).

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