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Unions work

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Re: Unions work

#151

Post by adamrezich »

tshaddox wrote: post #143
knewter wrote: post #128

When I was learning to walk, my dad was installing conveyors for an automotive factory - he was vp of engineering (later robotics) for a large engineering firm that Siemens ultimately bought. He was trying to get the job finished and get home to his family, so he was working late one night double checking the fit on all the nuts, bolts, anything he could check to ensure the job was successful. He did this all the tim…

That just sounds like humans committing assault. Really awful, but to me it doesn't indicate much about the concept of unions. I bet there was a firefighter once who murdered someone, but likewise that doesn't indicate much about the concept of firefighting.

> I bet there was a firefighter once who murdered someone, but likewise that doesn't indicate much about the concept of firefighting.

exceedingly terrible analogy, because the hypothetical firefighter hypothetically committing a hypothetical murder, wholly unrelated to firefighting, is a completely different situation than union guys threatening violence on a worker for union-related reasons, in the pursuit of union-related ideals.

Re: Unions work

#153

Post by CamperBob2 »

phone8675309 wrote: post #146
bko wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that unions work. It's mainly due to the fact that it treats everyone more or less the same based on some formula. For instance, they make decisions based on an observable set of factors like how long someone has been there and what education and training they have. But anyone that's worked in the workforce knows this is very limited. People aren't the same. Sometimes someone has been in an org forever but…

> It's mainly due to the fact that it treats everyone more or less the same based on some formula. The beauty of a free market system is that if you feel that way, that the union bring mediocrity, you're not forced to deal with them. Start your own company that does not deal with the unions and bring in talent however you see fit. If unions really make things worse then congratulations, you've just created a more agi…

For one thing, berserk cops could actually be fired if it weren't for their union.

Re: Unions work

#154

Post by [deleted] »

tshaddox wrote: post #143
knewter wrote: post #128

When I was learning to walk, my dad was installing conveyors for an automotive factory - he was vp of engineering (later robotics) for a large engineering firm that Siemens ultimately bought. He was trying to get the job finished and get home to his family, so he was working late one night double checking the fit on all the nuts, bolts, anything he could check to ensure the job was successful. He did this all the tim…

That just sounds like humans committing assault. Really awful, but to me it doesn't indicate much about the concept of unions. I bet there was a firefighter once who murdered someone, but likewise that doesn't indicate much about the concept of firefighting.

[deleted]

Re: Unions work

#155

Post by LindeBuzoGray »

nonethewiser wrote: post #53

I can see why workers are most concerned with their own benefit but total productivity is important to the health of a business and economy, which is important to workers as well. And no, working 32 hours is not as productive as 40 hours.

> And no, working 32 hours is not as productive as 40 hours.

By this logic, working 48 hours is more productive, working 54 hours even more productive, 62 hours even more productive. It can be cranked up even more - the English did and took meticulous records on it.

Dialecticaly it created a strong Labour party which took power in 1945 and nationalized coal, the bank of England, hospitals, telecommunications, national rail, iron and steel - the commanding heights of the economy.

Re: Unions work

#156

Post by bko »

phone8675309 wrote: post #146
bko wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that unions work. It's mainly due to the fact that it treats everyone more or less the same based on some formula. For instance, they make decisions based on an observable set of factors like how long someone has been there and what education and training they have. But anyone that's worked in the workforce knows this is very limited. People aren't the same. Sometimes someone has been in an org forever but…

> It's mainly due to the fact that it treats everyone more or less the same based on some formula. The beauty of a free market system is that if you feel that way, that the union bring mediocrity, you're not forced to deal with them. Start your own company that does not deal with the unions and bring in talent however you see fit. If unions really make things worse then congratulations, you've just created a more agi…

> The beauty of a free market system is that if you feel that way, that the union bring mediocrity, you're not forced to deal with them.

This explains the decline of unions in general. Its also tough when the president of the US is on the picket line and your industry depends on a federal bailout every decade or so. But that's a while different story...

> Not sure why you think non-union jobs are immune to cronyism and gatekeeping.

Other places are not immune and if someone wants to hire their family member at an above market rate, he is free to do so. But it may raise a few eyebrows from greedy business owners. But paying above market rates is not by design. I would still like to know what to do if you have 100 equally qualified people trying to get the same over paid position. How do you decide?

> Do you honestly think that the situation would be any different if police were non-union?

Absolutely. You don't see non unionized industries protecting workers to an extreme degree. Why would they? The whole premise behind unions is that management is not always aligned with workers interests. But now you're telling me managers would protect literal murderers just because? It's not consistent

Re: Unions work

#157

Post by Spivak »

wilg wrote: post #135
Spivak wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no since because foreign companies are onshoring manufacturing. There's a good chance your foreign car was made here. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Honda_Motor_Company https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_of_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Motor_America https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_North_America The fact that The Ford Dodge GM Chrysler Jeep Dr Pepper S…

None of those companies auto workers are unionized in the US.

But they're still in the US and paying near identical wages to UAW plants so it's not unions "ever demanding higher wages" that makes the difference.

But maybe not forever since the UAW strike those unionized workers might gasp make the same amount they did pre-inflation in real dollars. The greedy bastards not taking a pay cut while the cost of the cars go up and those companies make record profits. Won't you think of the poor owners who are demanding higher returns, I think we can all sacrifice for them.

Re: Unions work

#158

Post by simfree »

zeroonetwothree wrote: post #129
specialist wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what ways would non-union government employees be better?

Presumably the idea is they would be motivated to do a good job or else be fired. Whereas now they are immune from firing unless doing something egregious. I don’t really agree with that though as the real reason is the government has no competition. If McDonalds does a bad job at service you will go to Burger King. But if the DMV does a bad job well tough cookies what are you going to move to Sweden?

Even with unions King County already does 3 year "temporary" contract positions for all new hires in some departments, and the City of Seattle is driving a hard line of only a 2% COLA increase in contract negotiations.

Outside of the SPD Guild, unions don't have much leverage to retain underperforming employees. Document the failure to perform a handful of times and that employee will be gone, with at most a grievance filed where you get to reiterate how they repeatedly failed to deliver at work.

Re: Unions work

#159

Post by Steltek »

say_it_as_it_is wrote: post #66

Unions also kill companies when executives refuse their demands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_McCardell

That particular example seems to be entirely the fault of a CEO who was terrible at his job.

Re: Unions work

#160

Post by gumby »

VancouverMan wrote: post #105
gumby wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I built my house using union labor. Having seen the quality of welds from some non-union welders it was a no brainer. Overall quality of the rest of the work (carpentry, plastering everything) was worth it.

Is there something that such unions in your area do to ensure that a worker's skill and ability matter far more than, say, who their relatives happen to be?

I don't know what it's like in Vancouver, but I have lived in Massachusetts and there it's not really a union issue: the corruption is equally present in, say, government (e.g. until recently there was a whole county all of whose land had been taken away but that remained solely so jobs like sheriff, bailiff etc could be handed out to relatives in cronies. Anything with a large flow of money (e.g. the Big Dig) gets openly looted. I've been told the same is true in Chicago, but I don't know directly. As far as the unions go, indeed, the lack of seriousness about the work is how, for example, the Ted Williams tunnel killed people, with no repercussions.

OTOH what passes for corruption in California, where I live now, would make an east coast politician laugh. Certainly in the trades (welding in particular, but all sorts of construction I needed) the quality of work was top notch. And why not? In construction, at least, there is no reason to use union if you don't want to and most don't, which leads to the the shitty quality of residential construction (there should be more of it but that's another issue).

Perhaps one thing is regulation. We once bought a pressure vessel that arrived with a small ding (if bad, it's an opportunity for an explosion). We called the pressure vessel unit in Oakland and someone arrived in 45 minutes which means he'd dropped anything else and and hopped into his car as soon as we hung up the phone. Even before he arrived we got an annoyed call from the mfr (as it turned out all was well...but the pressure vessel unit wanted to see for themselves). While he was there we showed him a piece done by a former contractor who had not been able to produce the union tickets. We had fired them because the work was safety critical (high pressure steam is no joke) and the contractor was suing us. One look at the piece and he yanked out his phone. Let's just say later that day the contractor's lawyer couriered over a document cancelling the lawsuit, a cashier's check for money already paid, and a request that we not countersue. Those guys are not fucking around.

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