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Unions work

werd.io

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Re: Unions work

#41
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "to the country". Faster economic growth?

Faster economic growth tends to lead to happier citizens. In fact, there is a philosophical school of thought that shows that happiness isn't related to the environment one lives in, but the improvement that one sees through one's lifetime. Economic growth can deliver that.

Unfortunately all of that improvement is concentrated in the hands of the ultra-wealthy.

Re: Unions work

#42
post #4

They do but an even better option is worker cooperatives which bring democracy and fair profit sharing to the workplace.

I agree. I'm kind of surprised more unions haven't taken responsibility for opening up co-ops. They have lots of money to do it, it's pro-worker, and it enables them to own the means of production. Unions ironically act very conservative these days. They could take some bold steps to potentially create very worker-friendly, worker-owned shops, which would create a voluntary, non-coercive path towards the "market soci…

> I'm kind of surprised more unions haven't taken responsibility for opening up co-ops

Because that requires skillsets they don't have. People with the skills to start, manage and run companies usually aren't workers so not a part of the union, and I doubt the union members would be happy if the union spent lots of money to hire managers to bet on a startup.

Re: Unions work

#43
Kudos for the WGA for the achievement.

I partially agree with the statement that unions work. From what I see Unions are great and the current model works in situations where there are 2 monopolies, a monopoly of a work place and monopoly of workforce.

In this case the WGA is the monopoly of workforce and the Hollywood is the monopoly of workplace.

Along the history I saw that this dynamic worked and got advancements for the workers (especially during the industrialisation phase of several countries).

However, when this dynamic is broken what happen is that the “losing side” in a negotiation will start to see alternatives to reduce the dependency of this monopoly.

One clear example is the automotive industry that invested in high amount or automation, offshoring, and in a streamlined supply chain to reduce that exposure. I do not have any number but I would bet that Tesla today can have a high operational margin in comparison with Ford or GM.

For IT I think several companies, specially in this down market, are starting to do the same thing doing offshoring or nearshoring of SWE, hiring folks abroad to avoid the risk of unionization due to the fact there’s no monopoly of SWE as a workforce.

Re: Unions work

#44
post #4

They do but an even better option is worker cooperatives which bring democracy and fair profit sharing to the workplace.

I agree. I'm kind of surprised more unions haven't taken responsibility for opening up co-ops. They have lots of money to do it, it's pro-worker, and it enables them to own the means of production. Unions ironically act very conservative these days. They could take some bold steps to potentially create very worker-friendly, worker-owned shops, which would create a voluntary, non-coercive path towards the "market soci…

Because the real title should be Unions Work For Union Members. Unions became unpopular for a reason. Some were (and I assume still are) outright criminal organizations. The better ones were happy to sell out future workers with two tiered pay structures and by rotting out the companies they worked for.

In practice they have just been another layer of economically unproductive people siphoning off value.

Re: Unions work

#45
post #2

I'm conflicted about unions, but it would be truly amazing if they brought us the 4-day work-week the way they got the 8-hour workday and weekends.

A good chunk of employers will let you work a 4 day workweek in return for a 20% pay cut. For most people here on HN, you could probably survive on a 20% pay cut - you'd just have to have the kids share a bedroom rather than having one each and a guest room. Downside: Those on a 4 day workweek really struggle to get promoted to senior positions.

Maybe some unions will let the shareholders get a 20% profit-cut[1] and the workers a four-day workweek in return for not starting a strike.

[1] In reality less than that; see the autoworker strike in the US where they are demanding (among other things) a 40% pay increase, meanwhile those companies could really afford to pay the union members 100% more.

Re: Unions work

#46
post #36

[flagged]

To clarify, are you saying that fighting systemic discrimination is a bad thing? From my perspective (as, for what it's worth, a cis white man), ensuring all my colleagues have equity is a pretty strong win. I want my company to have the best working conditions possible. That means ensuring that the most talented people feel welcome there, regardless of their demographics. Which, in turn, means removing systemic ways…

The initiatives pushed in this article are themselves discriminatory. For example YouTube was sued because they were not hiring Asian or white men and fired someone for still interviewing them. That is discrimination, regardless of the goal, which was presumably to increase the amount of women or specific ethnicities. More diversity in tech is great sure, but not if it means racial and sexist discrimination.

Re: Unions work

#47

[flagged]

> unions are for fighting for better conditions for their workers regardless of gender or race Regardless of, but not blind to. Different workers do experience different conditions because of race and gender among other things, and unions need to account for those differences not pretend they don't exist. > I could in no way trust a tech Union to actually fight for me and not against me You probably didn't mean it th…

Not the OP, but I feel the racially focused initiatives of today are misdirected, counterproductive, and themselves racist. And like you, I deem it as not in my best interest, or society at large, to endorse or support those who are doing the wrong thing (even if they are doing so with the best of intentions).

Re: Unions work

#48
post #2

I'm conflicted about unions, but it would be truly amazing if they brought us the 4-day work-week the way they got the 8-hour workday and weekends.

I built my house using union labor. Having seen the quality of welds from some non-union welders it was a no brainer. Overall quality of the rest of the work (carpentry, plastering everything) was worth it.

Re: Unions work

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who still has elevator operators today?

Wealthy people and stores trying to make their customers feel like a wealthy person.

For wealthy people, that would be an example of extreme luxury, or in other words spending vast amounts of money for marginal improvements in quality of life. Doing so is perfectly rational for them (what else are they going to do with their money?), but hardly an example of economic efficiency.

“Stores trying to make their customers feel like a wealthy person” are a special case. It might be economically efficient (i.e. profitable) for them to spend money on things associated with extravagance and wealth, in order to more effectively create an image in their customers’ minds and thus attract more customers. But those circumstances don’t apply to the vast majority of elevator owners.

So what exactly is your point?

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