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Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

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Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#51
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they switch? These are new features they haven't been using and which probably aren't available on Silverlight or WebGL. Switch because they're adding an option you don't want to chose?

Silverlight 5 and WebGL offer hardware accelerated 3D graphics. So if you're making a new 3D game from scratch, SL or WebGL could be worth looking into. If a company has no plans to use these premium features, then yes, I would imagine they will continue along as-is with Flash. But a last thought; a revenue sharing plan like this will make big players nervous - what might Adobe starting charging for next? It will cau…

This. Development studios won't want to be locked into the ass-raping that iOS developers have been putting up with. With advanced browsers and WebGL gaining traction, along with the proliferation of iOS devices which don't use Flash at all, I'd say Adobe has completely screwed themselves.

Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#52

…and how exactly are Adobe going to know what 9 percent of net revenue for a given movie is?

You've obviously never worked in the business world. It's all built on trust. You either have it, or you don't. When you sign a contract with these companies, you give them the right to, if they so choose, ask for all your records to review at any given point in time.

I'm not at liberty to go into specifics, but for example one company we deal with charges a flat royalty off of every product that includes their tech. At the end of the month, we send them exactly 2 statistics along with a check: how many items sold, and what we now owe them. (This is a huge company and we're talking on the scale of hundreds of thousands of dollars.)

When you're a company, you don't take stupid risks like cheating out your licensors over something less than half of what you're making. It's nowhere near being worth the risk, as even aside from any legal issues, fees, and compensations, if you get caught you can kiss that licensing agreement goodbye and then you have to start over from scratch with a different platform, a different provider, and different tech.

Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#53
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No options? Silverlight? WebGL? Sure they may not be perfect, but for 9% of revenue, companies will consider alternatives pretty quickly

Why would they switch? These are new features they haven't been using and which probably aren't available on Silverlight or WebGL. Switch because they're adding an option you don't want to chose?

If we're only concerned about Adobe's customers not leaving, it's very certain that Adobe is in a losing proposition. That's the position Microsoft is in and IBM was in for a long time. Why would anyone want to pay for Flash over WebGL or nacl if they're starting a new project?

Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#56
I don't think Adobe understands the concept of "substitution"--namely, that for most things, HTML5 seems to far outweigh Adobe's inferior Flash. So charging for Flash may prove to be a bone-headed move.

This being said, what better way to force a spin-off than to totally wreck that side of the business' pricing?

Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#57
I ranted a bit when this news was first posted on HN late last night, now that I've had more time to mull it over, it just pisses me off even more. It seems like every Adobe press release these days is like a gorgeous chocolate cake...

...with cigarette butts stubbed out in it.

I write games in Actionscript every day, that's my day job and it was going to be my night job too. The state of Flash development has never been worse than it is right now, and it is largely because of Adobe's utter incompetence at building tools for targeting the Flash VM. Their documentation ranges from mediocre to horrendous, their frameworks have sprawled far too much, and the runtime is needlessly fragmented. They threw in the towel on mobile development months ago. Then they killed (more or less) their Linux support. So much for write once run anywhere. And what did they declare as their new strategy? Games. Console quality, AAA dev worthy games. They're betting the whole flash ecosystem farm on people playing GPU accelerated, high quality games in the browser. Not the worst idea they've ever had, but not particularly inventive.

Obviously they were going to have to make some money off of this new initiative, and I naively assumed that they would build a really great toolset for developing these games. For some really ridiculous reason, I actually thought that they would get back in the business of building tools to let people create really great content (they haven't been selling the best tools for making Flash content for the last 4 years or so, so I thought maybe they would change that).

Instead we get this, the chocolate cake with cigarette butts stamped out in it. I fully understand that Adobe have not had the time to actually develop a useful developer's kit for game dev targeted at the Flash runtime. In fact, it might not ever be appropriate for them to do so. But right now they are struggling mightily just to remain relevant, so it seemed natural to me that whatever they did come up with would really give devs an incentive to consider their runtime and workflow as a reasonable, efficient, and cost effective option.

Instead some greedy twit seems to have taken a gander at UDK licensing costs (25% off gross after your first 50 grand in revenue), and thought, "we can charge that!" If they offered a tenth of what UDK actually offers, then they might very well have been able to charge what they're going after--9% off net from pretty much all revenue in excess of 50 grand, virtual items, whatever. How very generous of them. But what are you actually getting for this big chunk of your profit?

You're getting Alchemy, a cross compiler that compiles C/C++ into AS bytecode to be executed by the Flash VM or a binary compiled for iOS. Are you getting an industry leading developer's toolkit like Unreal? An amazing engine? A version of Gears of War 3 or some other equally massive/ambitious game to use as a starting point to base your project around? No, you'll still have to pay Unreal for that (or Unity or write your own game engine) and pay their licensing fees (remember, that's 25% off gross). Alchemy was introduced years ago, and at the time, it was just a one man project (if that, it seemed like it was just a part time project at the time). Cross-compile C and C++ into AS bytecode, sweet. Cost: free. I seriously doubt that this stopgap, bullshit, announcement has been preceded by considerably more development into Alchemy, and even if they have thrown dozens of people at the project for the last 6 months, it can't possibly justify the cost. I would think they would work for longer than 6 months on flagship product announcements that are the lynchpin for their entire damned roadmap, but at Adobe, roadmaps themselves don't seem to last that long. So will any giant game developer actually use this? I can't see how it's viable for them to use it at the public royalty rates. Maybe Zynga can get a better licensing contract than us poor schlubs, but there's no way they're going to throw away 9% of their net after blowing through 55% on Unreal and Facebook's take before even considering their own costs.

Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#58
post #35

I am a flash devoleper. Have been an ardent flash supporter for the past 7 years, but sadly, at this point, even i have to admit, it's Game Over. Adobe fucked up. Over, and over and over again. They had everything going for them, a large and and extremely smart, devoted community, a very rich and powerful authoring platform, and ,most importantly,ubiquity, but they got complacent, deluded by their own hype. They fail…

No, it's not over. Not yet. I think only a small percentage of developers make $50k / year per game/app. And Stage3 is way ahead of what one day hopefully WebGL will offer. There's no way (at the moment) of producing the same quality application in HTML5/js with the same effort you need for Flash. Mozilla released their cute browserQuest game yesterday, something "Realm of the Mad God" did 2+ years ago in Flash. HTML…

Correct. Audio support is one of the big features what is keeping me on Flash. This is a great rundown on the depressing state of audio support in HTML5:

http://www.phoboslab.org/log/2011/03/the-state-of-html5-audi...

Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#59
post #8

More info at: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplayer/articles/premium-fea... Specifically: Premium features licensing will only be needed when both of the following APIs are used in the same application run in Flash Player: * ApplicationDomain.domainMemory, which provides access to domain memory * Stage3D.request3DContext, if using hardware acceleration -- From the article, it looks like ApplicationDomain.domainMemo…

Well, shit... Alchemy+Stage3D is directly a competitor to NaCl+WebGL. By refusing to help NaCl become open-standards-worthy, Mozilla is going to end up watching Alchemy beat out NaCl (and Emscriptem) with a completely proprietary, revenue-shared (and therefore implicitly licensor-dependent) alternative.

Re: Adobe to charge Flash coders to use 'premium' features

#60
post #57

I ranted a bit when this news was first posted on HN late last night, now that I've had more time to mull it over, it just pisses me off even more. It seems like every Adobe press release these days is like a gorgeous chocolate cake... ...with cigarette butts stubbed out in it. I write games in Actionscript every day, that's my day job and it was going to be my night job too. The state of Flash development has never…

So true about the documentation and APIs. In the network stack for example, if you do certain things to a POST, Flash actually stops using HTTP and starts using "XML Sockets" which runs over a different port, and AFAIK is something Abobe just made up one day. This happens silently and can be triggered in a couple different subtle ways. They need to fix nonsense like this before I can take Flash seriously again.
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