EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals • Hacker News Board

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#771

Post by ekianjo » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:39 AM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #694

robertlagrant wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If V8 becomes a monopoly, and with it chromium, then Google can finally be "properly" hit with an antitrust case over Chrome V8 isn't a monopoly in the antitrust sense, at all. Google gives away the source code to most of Chrome that allows other people to make browsers with it, and they do. Something being popular doesn't indicate a monopoly. Microsoft could choose to make a browser engine, but they don't, and it'…

I think this isn't the case. There were alternatives to Internet Explorer, yet Microsoft was hit with antitrust measures for defaulting to IE. I believe that something being sufficiently popular does make it a monopoly in the antitrust sense - there's language around "market dominance" in there [0]. I'm just an MBA not a lawyer, though. 0: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/monopoly.asp

Microsoft got hit with it because they shipped IE with Windows by default

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#772

Post by sensanaty » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:41 AM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #759

sensanaty wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's hell on android having to install all of these separate app stores.... Oh, except it isn't, 99.9% of these apps just exist on the Play Store. If you don't like them, just don't use them, right? I mean that's the argument we're seeing against these changes, how does it not apply equally the opposite way? If you don't want to use an app like Facebook because it's on its own separate appstore, then don't. Besi…

Apple have much stricter requirements, which is the point the person is making and you are willingly ignoring. Apple, right now, have the ability to ensure the apps are transparent about what they track, have an explicit dialogue to confirm if you'd like the app to track you. These big corps hate that apple have that control and want to keep their customers informed on what's going on, and as such, they will stop usi…

Sounds like Apple, with their trillions of dollars and apparent focus on quality, should invest into figuring out an OS-level permissions system then, which I presume they already do have. The OS should be handling such issues, not the App Store from which apps come from. Even if the user installs some botnet willingly, it shouldn't be able to break out of the OS sandbox and do things the user doesn't want simply because it was sideloaded (assuming a non-jailbroken/rooted phone which no non-technical user will ever accidentally find themselves with).

> These big corps hate that apple have that control and want to keep their customers informed on what's going on...

Oh yeah, the noble small Apple - the richest and biggest corporation to have ever existed - only has their user's best wishes in mind... It's totally unrelated to their own ad network, which they're building on top of the data they exclusively have access to thanks to their walled garden! And no, I'm not saying others should have access to this data, this data shouldn't be able to be used at all, not by Apple nor anyone else.

> ... they will stop using the App Store and ask customers to side load so they can release much more invasive versions of their apps that track everything without any user ever being informed

If the only thing protecting users from this is the fact that you can't sideload and have to rely on the App Store review process, then that's some real shit security, and Apple should definitely improve things there.

> So yes, this IS objectively a bad thing and ripe for explotation.

Funny how saying something is objective doesn't make it so. It's objectively bad for Apple, sure, since they lose their iron-tight grip on their own users. They also lose out on that sweet 30% of every penny a dev makes. Won't find me shedding a tear for them though, the less money Apple and the other megacorps get to suck dry, the better.

And again, all they have to do is spend a few thousand of those trillions of dollars they have to put up an obnoxious and hard-to-get-rid of warning when sideloading. People who care about sideloading like myself will happily oblige and go through the warning screens even if they're tedious, while the hypothetical vulnerable grandmas get greeted with a screen they don't know how to work around.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#773

Post by matwood » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:50 AM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #408

kibwen wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, and then we can properly break up Facebook as well as Google. I see no downsides here.

I don't see what breaking up Google or Facebook accomplishes, it changes absolutely nothing for consumers.

Almost every item you buy online has some Google 'tax' baked in. That alone isn't a problem, but since Google controls almost the entire ad market, there isn't any competition pushing that tax down. Notice the similarity to the App Store arguments?

If Google and YouTube were split up, I could see a future where both start competing for text and video search against each other. This competition would drive down ad rates across both platforms. It would also allow space for other competitors to come in.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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Post by Kbelicius » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:52 AM UTC

indigo0086 wrote: post #468

kibwen wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fucking good. Seconded. Perpetually baffled by the so-called hackers in all of these threads arguing vociferously against user freedom.

User has the freedom to buy or not. Any other expectations the user has can't be regulated into existence and be called "freedom". So-called hackers constantly begging for regulation without thinking one step ahead of the consequences of increased tech regulation is more baffling.

> User has the freedom to buy or not.

User also has the freedom to use whatever he bought in any way he sees fit (as long as it isn't illegal). Or do you consider that something a user shouldn't be able to do?

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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Post by SSLy » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:57 AM UTC

janandonly wrote: post #741

sensanaty wrote: post #677

I tend to drop the bot/shill-detector part of my brain when I'm on HN, but whenever this topic crops up it's always a deluge of people with the same exact arguments saying "ohh my poor grandma will be coerced to install a Virus if we allow the owner of an iDevice any freedom whatsoever with hardware they bought!!!", and it's quite interesting to me the volume of comments with the exact same identical sentiment copy/p…

The App Store is not perfect, but what was the last time you actually installed a virus on iOS or iPadOS? It's working Good Enough™ I wish/hope that as the default family IT guy, I will be able to set policies on my parents devices that block 3rd party apps.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37425007

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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Post by donatj » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:57 AM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #762

donatj wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With no regard for specified speed / power capabilities, USB-C is in and of itself a vastly physically inferior connection. It becomes easily impacted with pocket lint, and the tolerances are so small it can't be cleaned with normal tools. Not even just the phone, but the cable as well. I'm an Android user and I have spent years dreaming that Apple would just open Lightning to the community. I am kind of lightly thri…

Big disagree. You just clean it out with a brush or something. Maintain your shit. God, imagine if you ever owned the roof over you head or something. USB-C has the retaining clips in the cable which is a replaceable and sacrificial item. Lightning has it in the device so once it goes the whole device is essentially dead. So much for "vastly inferior".

I take very good care of my things. The plug on my phone should not require daily maintenance though. I have had cell phones since the late 90s and USB-C is the only plug that has given me trouble.

USB-C over a pretty short period collects lint. It gets compressed into the connector little by little every time you seat the cable and eventually your cable won't seat anymore. You then find a very solid plug in the bottom of the port that no amount of brushing will get it out.

You basically have to use a very fine needle to scrape the bottom.

I am guessing you have never had a USB-C phone before.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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Post by Woeps » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:58 AM UTC

a-user-you-like wrote: post #746

anhner wrote: post #693

I remember years ago, when the EU first announced they would force Apple to switch to USB-C (well, not specifically Apple, but mandate a single cable type), there were droves of users on HN wailing that "what business does EU have to dictate which cable companies should use?" Yet here we are, everyone praising iPhone 15 for having a USB-C connector. I am looking forward to a couple of years down the line when we can…

[flagged]

" that it’s immoral to coerce men to do what you want"

Wait what? but that's what community and laws are all about.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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Post by Yizahi » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:58 AM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #258

faeriechangling wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you can only run Safari on iOS Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8 back from a total monopoly, while WebKit itself has no chance of being a monopoly in the forseeable future, so I doubt there's a good anti-competitive case to be made for forcing Apple to stop doing this. It would only accelerate the monopolisation of the browser market if this happened. It would be good for consumers in the short ter…

Just like Apple mandating WebKit is the only thing holding v8/Chromium from a total monopoly, the App Store monopoly is the only thing holding back "use Meta omni-permission store or get cut off from FB/IG/WhatsApp". And then Meta getting most companies to use their store because they'll take 10% and just the data.

That would be amazing, because people will finally leave these apps for good. See videogame case about corpos leaving Steam for their own inferior walled gardens and failing spectacularly.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

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Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:58 AM UTC

shuckles wrote: post #597

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because optional sideloading might create a mild inconvenience for you, you support the abusive policy that creates a huge problem for millions of users.

What’s a killer sideloaded app on Android that iPhone users suffer from not having? Fortnite? I’m looking for problems on the scale of millions of users.

Signal or Telegram in China. All those opposition apps that Apple readily removed from Russian AppStore at Putin's behest.

Re: EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals

#780

Post by chrisandchris » Wed, Sep 27, 2023, 10:59 AM UTC

Moldoteck wrote: post #678

throwaway29645 wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any other alternative client available other than the default Meta one.

I mean, just don't use it. Also there are matrix/element, signal, telegram(a bit worse for security), or you can use Beeper if WA is so mega important

Couldn't one just argue the same about Apple? I mean, if you don't like their lock-in, then just don't use it.

I don't want to use WhatsApp, but it's a quasi monopoly in messaging in many countries and thei're not opening up their APIs for others. We should force them too, shouldn't we?