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Rethinking the Luddites

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Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#331

Post by meheleventyone »

coolhand2120 wrote: post #14

People are happy to use tech like wix to build a web page because building web pages is hard. Virtually every designer, artist, writer, and musician, were all very happy to use wix even though it cost the jobs of legions of developers. “Finally I can do what these nerds can do without their help”. I really don’t see the difference.

I actually think this is where automation and tools are most useful in some respects. Instead of displacing workers they bring an ability into the range of the average person. I’m not familiar with Wix specifically but I didn’t see that there was this huge industry of people making websites for individuals. Mostly because individuals can’t afford it! A tool brings it within the budgets of individuals and you get an explosion of websites. MySpace was very similar. 3D printing is another technology that has largely let previously hard and expensive manufacturing to be done by the individual.

It’s be callous to disregard that this probably also displaces some people from jobs but personally I think the difference of scale is important. In particular what scale can society and the economy actually absorb. I think there are good arguments that there are social and economic issues already starkly apparent that have been caused by similar shocks. Extrapolating from those experiences the likely impact of large scale AI shocks right now seems to be larger inequality and more social and economic issues than less.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#332

Post by ImHereToVote »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #315

The best way to prevent the future is to invent it. Paraphrasing Alan Kaye here. There's a certain inevitability to AI. The proverbial cat is out of the bag. Our choices are simply to be part of this revolution or to be left behind while the likes of China and others, not blocked by mildly hysterical ethical activists protesting their own irrelevance, plow ahead. It's really that simple. I call out China here because…

China actually has regulation for safe AI. It's hard to say how "safe" that regulation is. But it's better than what US is doing with OpenAI. Essentially do whatever lol.

https://www.lw.com/admin/upload/SiteAttachments/Chinas-New-A...

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#333

Post by ojo-rojo »

fhd2 wrote: post #318
jillesvangurp wrote: post #315

The best way to prevent the future is to invent it. Paraphrasing Alan Kaye here. There's a certain inevitability to AI. The proverbial cat is out of the bag. Our choices are simply to be part of this revolution or to be left behind while the likes of China and others, not blocked by mildly hysterical ethical activists protesting their own irrelevance, plow ahead. It's really that simple. I call out China here because…

I'm not aware of anyone who wants to "prevent AI" - as incredibly ambiguous as that phrase is. What I suppose some people worry about is stuff like: 1. That they will have some means of feeding themselves and their families going forward 2. That they won't be at the whim of increasingly totalitarian (and arbitrary) governments with increasing power 3. That they will continue to find human connection 4. That they won'…

What about this guy:

"the most likely result of building a superhumanly smart AI, under anything remotely like the current circumstances, is that literally everyone on Earth will die"

"Shut down all the large GPU clusters...be willing to destroy a rogue datacenter by airstrike"

https://time.com/6266923/ai-eliezer-yudkowsky-open-letter-no...

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#334

Post by ImHereToVote »

zone411 wrote: post #187

Here's a random tweet that I believe foreshadows the future: "I hate AI but also I've had the most insightful conversations with it about writing. It has been more honest, helpful and playful in workshopping story ideas than any real human I know. It's like chatting with a room full of actual writers and the value of that can't be ignored." I've seen similar sentiment from a few digital artists. Those who are very an…

I think it's better to think of what jobs will be spared when we have a general problem solver, or a general goal to action mapper. I can't think of a single one.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#335

Post by sp527 »

yolkedgeek wrote: post #320

Being opposed to technology is something I don't understand. I'm a software engineer; and if some day AI can fully replace me, that is a "me" problem. I should be able to bring value, I should be able to adapt. When horses where THE way of transportation, there were hundreds of jobs, and thousands of workers supporting the horse industry. creating stables, blacksmiths, vets, etc. but in a matter of couple of decades,…

> 'Some with sociopathy may not realize that what they’re doing is wrong while others may simply not care. And sometimes, Dr. Coulter says, it can be both.

“There’s just a total lack of empathy or recognizing that what they’ve done has hurt someone or it’s only benefited themselves,” he says. “And sometimes they might recognize what they’re doing is wrong, they just don’t care or they justify it to themselves.”'

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/sociopath-personality-dis...

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#336

Post by ImHereToVote »

zlg_codes wrote: post #58
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the first time in history a machine can come up with novel ideas. Up until now, you were only really automating away the boring stuff.

Since when can a computer come up with a novel idea? Do not be fooled by GPT, it's a fancy Markov chain hooked up to training data. It cannot come up with anything that wasn't already in its data set.

Can you?

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#338

Post by tyg13 »

czl wrote: post #115
zlg_codes wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Luddites were free people who knew a trade that machines were threatening to make obsolete. The slavery situation is nowhere near comparable. Slave owners didn't care one iota about their livestock, they were a means to an end. Did the Luddites capture or enslave anyone? I think this comparison was made solely to raise the temperature of the conversation. Vandalism or destruction of property is nowhere near as in…

If your job was X by hand and now a machine does X better what gives you the right to deny others who want to use such a machine? > The Luddites were free people who knew a trade that machines were threatening to make obsolete. Did Luddites not feel it was their right to impose costs on others to maintain their way of life? > Slave owners didn't care one iota about their livestock, they were a means to an end. Slave…

> If your job was X by hand and now a machine does X better what gives you the right to deny others who want to use such a machine?

Self-preservation? Do you expect them to roll over and die?

> Did Luddites not feel it was their right to impose costs on others to maintain their way of life?

Did the factory owners not feel it was their right to suddenly and massively disrupt the industries that Luddites were making a living in? What about the cost on them?

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#339

Post by ImHereToVote »

cm2012 wrote: post #263
pixl97 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ugh, tired of hearing this same old shit. Do you believe the luddites would have burned the looms if instead this offer would have been on the table "Hello, instead of being starving beggars in the street, we will offer you retraining, and provide meals while doing so" Oh, look, a social safety net actually can benefit capital owners and keep their factories from burning.

They didn't want retraining as mill workers. It was much lower paid work. They wanted their old jobs which didn't exist anymore. I agree that the government should absolutely take care of people who lose the capitalism lottery.

They just wanted to provide for their families. The reason you don't hear about the ones that didn't is because dead men tell no tales.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#340

Post by heavyset_go »

sakex wrote: post #330

> Today, the word “Luddite” is used as an insult to anyone resistant to technological innovation Interesting, I never thought of the term as pejorative. I always thought of the movement as a kind of working-class heroes trying to navigate an uncertain future where rich people made them obsolete.

Along with being skilled laborers, Luddites were also proprietors and small business owners.
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