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Rethinking the Luddites

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Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#251

Post by raincole »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #242
raincole wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's telling that this anti-automation and anti-AI movement is finally reaching its crescendo Is it? I just fail to see how it "reaching its crescendo". Luddites DID destroy machines. Where are the anti-AI people buring data centers down? If anything I will say there is barely any anti-AI movement happening around the world right now. There are millions of vegan people choose to not eat meat as their lifestyles. Do…

Tv and Hollywood writers in one of the most culturally exported countries in the world striked for several months with specific anti AI demands, which were then capitulated to today.

Writers striked in 1988 and 2007 too. Don't think it's something new.

Also even this strike doesn't demain to ban AI.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#252

Post by heavyset_go »

rossriley wrote: post #47
w_for_wumbo wrote: post #3

There's plenty of rhetoric about whether technology advancements will be a good thing or not. But I think that distracts from the core message, that the most important matter is not whether we use technology, but how we treat our fellow humans. By replacing labour with robots and not compensating them, you're sending a clear message that you don't respect people and the value that they bring. We have a mandate for us…

People bring the value that they generate for an economy. Once they can be replaced with AI/Robots then that labour can be reallocated further up the value chain which in turn makes our economies and culture richer and more productive. Imagine if we were all working 18 hour subsistence farming jobs now just to survive, it's ridiculous to argue that eschewing automation for anything is detrimental, it only serves to e…

> Imagine if we were all working 18 hour subsistence farming jobs now just to survive

Pre-industrial workers actually worked less than people who have 40 hour work weeks do[1].

[1] https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_...

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#253

Post by creer »

zlg_codes wrote: post #64
coolhand2120 wrote: post #14

People are happy to use tech like wix to build a web page because building web pages is hard. Virtually every designer, artist, writer, and musician, were all very happy to use wix even though it cost the jobs of legions of developers. “Finally I can do what these nerds can do without their help”. I really don’t see the difference.

This is a great perspective because, if humans acted rationally and ethically, it would be reality. The problem I have with tools like that is the technical quality of the solution (which Wix seemed somewhat reasonable in its output when I briefly looked around at Wix sites) and the social effects. Putting together a Wix site and buying or downloading/installing a theme does not make you a Web developer. You're still…

The music example is another good one: you can muddle through doing your own with free tools. Or if you want to get stuff done, you can hire session musicians. Does that mean there is a smaller market for session musicians? Yes. Does it mean the session musician job is now different? Yes. For one thing probably they can't be on autopilot. But there is still going to be a demand. Could it be that it's harder to make a living as a session musician. Probably so. Especially so during the period when there are too many legacy session musicians and already the future's fewer jobs - during that time offer exceeds demand and prices plunge.

The historical luddite example comes out - it seems - because the mechanization benefit is so massive to the owners that they convert very quickly. And an entire region relied on one industry. Little chance or time for the workers to convert even if they saw it coming, and they didn't.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#254

Post by pixl97 »

lolinder wrote: post #6

This version of the Luddites is the one I was taught in my history classes—in both HS and college my teachers were careful to emphasize that the colloquial usage and the actual movement are only loosely related, and we discussed how the Luddites weren't rejecting technology per se so much as they were acting out of desperation to preserve their way of life. This is certainly something worth learning from today, and a…

Pretty much every take posted under your thread here about luddites is a terrible one.

People in this thread don't seem to understand what the more archaic form of "preserve their way of life" actually means.

It means not starving to death. Back then there was no social safety net. Once your trade was not needed back then you were likely kicked to the street. There was not retraining to learn some new trade.

This is something in the times of "Learn 2 code", or "Go be a plumber" that we hear tossed about so casually. When you cause mass unemployment in a trade, especially very rapidly, you can destabilize society, you can induce crime, and even if you're not directly affected by the trade, you can be indirectly affected by the instability of the changing employment market.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#255

Post by pixl97 »

cm2012 wrote: post #188

The only thing that ever makes the human condition better in the long run is increased productivity. If luddites were left in charge we'd all be living like the 1800s.

Ugh, tired of hearing this same old shit.

Do you believe the luddites would have burned the looms if instead this offer would have been on the table

"Hello, instead of being starving beggars in the street, we will offer you retraining, and provide meals while doing so"

Oh, look, a social safety net actually can benefit capital owners and keep their factories from burning.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#256

Post by pixl97 »

paxys wrote: post #192
labrador wrote: post #112

I like to imagine a world where people don't have to work or worry about health care. It's all done by AI and robots. People are free to pursue their hobbies and other interests. How would we treat each then? Would we still be in terrible conflict with hate and prejudice prevalent?

Go back a hundred years or so and describe advancements such as organ transplants, DNA sequencing, insulin, pacemakers, the MRI machine, mRNA and more to the common people and they would think we were all living in a post-disease utopia. In reality a very tiny percent of the world has access to any of this medical progress. Technological innovation is not enough. We also need the political will to ensure equitable di…

>In reality a very tiny percent of the world has access to any of this medical progress.

20% of the world is very tiny?

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#257

Post by firen777 »

Nursie wrote: post #197
harerazer wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I don’t think its so much about white collar jobs being under threat as it is about creative jobs being under threat. Many creative pursuits are viewed as an outlet of human expression in a way that other jobs never were, and I think this is what is driving the new wave of the Resistance^TM

I enjoyed seeing a meme the other day (rare for me to enjoy!) that summed it up as something like - "Having to do manual labour to make ends meet while the robots paint and write poetry was not the future I had in mind". And I think that sums up the feeling quite well. I do agree that automation in general has not paid off in the way the utopians would predict - instead of freeing humanity from the need to work, we h…

>"Having to do manual labour to make ends meet while the robots paint and write poetry was not the future I had in mind"

Thank you for this quote! This speaks out the reason for my innate disgust toward the current "creative" AI which I couldn't quite articulate before.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#259

Post by WalterBright »

Nursie wrote: post #197
harerazer wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I don’t think its so much about white collar jobs being under threat as it is about creative jobs being under threat. Many creative pursuits are viewed as an outlet of human expression in a way that other jobs never were, and I think this is what is driving the new wave of the Resistance^TM

I enjoyed seeing a meme the other day (rare for me to enjoy!) that summed it up as something like - "Having to do manual labour to make ends meet while the robots paint and write poetry was not the future I had in mind". And I think that sums up the feeling quite well. I do agree that automation in general has not paid off in the way the utopians would predict - instead of freeing humanity from the need to work, we h…

Distributing the fruits of production equally has been tried several times. The result is everyone becomes equally poor.

Re: Rethinking the Luddites

#260

Post by SoftTalker »

debatem1 wrote: post #234
SoftTalker wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where are the pharaohs today? That sort of social imbalance leads inevitably to revolution. Always has. It's not sustainable.

It's no coincidence that we in the US have massive wealth inequality and are constantly teetering on the edge of political instability.

We've always had massive wealth inequality. Look at Rockefeller or Carnegie or du Pont compared to immigrants living 10 to a room in NYC tenements.
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