Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's telling that this anti-automation and anti-AI movement is finally reaching its crescendo Is it? I just fail to see how it "reaching its crescendo". Luddites DID destroy machines. Where are the anti-AI people buring data centers down? If anything I will say there is barely any anti-AI movement happening around the world right now. There are millions of vegan people choose to not eat meat as their lifestyles. Do…
Tv and Hollywood writers in one of the most culturally exported countries in the world striked for several months with specific anti AI demands, which were then capitulated to today.
Rethinking the Luddites
261–270 of 572 posts
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
luddites were not skeptical of technology, or even against it. They were against the way in which factory owners used technology to illegally displace them (as workers) and to falsely advertise the resulting textiles (selling low quality goods while claiming they were of higher quality) in order to undercut them and put them out of business.
The customer is responsible for accepting the level of quality of said goods. And it seems overwhelmingly that they (thru their action, rather than words), prefer to have cheaper, lower quality goods as long as it passes some threshold. Therefore, if a machine surpasses this threshold, they will win marketshare.
People don't 'prefer cheap low quality' they can't afford anything else.
> The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. ... A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#263The only thing that ever makes the human condition better in the long run is increased productivity. If luddites were left in charge we'd all be living like the 1800s.
Ugh, tired of hearing this same old shit. Do you believe the luddites would have burned the looms if instead this offer would have been on the table "Hello, instead of being starving beggars in the street, we will offer you retraining, and provide meals while doing so" Oh, look, a social safety net actually can benefit capital owners and keep their factories from burning.
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#264People at all level should do better using the time there is. For the ones (workers) to move up or away in their skills. For the others (businesses) to recognize a looming availability of human workforce which might be useful for some (other) business opportunity. For the third (governments) to - just in time - organize or encourage re-training at scale and in time. Trying to impose on each business to manage this whole world by itself is idiotic - normal business is tough and precarious enough. Trying to let each worker manage their own training is also insufficient: few people can optimally manage their own career at the same time as everything else.
An example in this direction is, I believe, Denmark's "Flexicurity". Firms can adapt to follow their needs; while workers can in general principle retain earnings while they retrain; while the state orchestrates availability of training (which itself can be a big industry sector). No doubt not perfect for anyone, but the general idea sounds solid.
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
Have you ever seen with your own eyes a farmer working 18 hours a day ? My theory is the 18 hour subsistence farmer story is a myth we tell ourselves that the world we’ve created is better, no questions asked. I live in a part of the world where people do a surprising amount of farming by hand. Very little machines and almost no fertiliser is used. No one, absolutely no one is working 18 hours. Mostly they have busy…
Automations like the automatic loom made clothes cheaper. Automation is responsible for a lot of our current quality of life. Do you really want to go back a 200+ years in QoL?
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's telling that this anti-automation and anti-AI movement is finally reaching its crescendo Is it? I just fail to see how it "reaching its crescendo". Luddites DID destroy machines. Where are the anti-AI people buring data centers down? If anything I will say there is barely any anti-AI movement happening around the world right now. There are millions of vegan people choose to not eat meat as their lifestyles. Do…
Tv and Hollywood writers in one of the most culturally exported countries in the world striked for several months with specific anti AI demands, which were then capitulated to today.
The Luddites struck too, the difference is their strikes involved riots where they intentionally destroyed factory equipment and where they clashed directly with police. Modern AI "protests" barely register, Silicon Valley workers just think the backlash is extreme because the modern tech industry is culturally disconnected from the history of most blue-collar labor movements.
There is something to the idea that this is the first time that many white-collar workers have ever seriously thought about the cultural impacts of automation before and on a small-scale it's the first exposure many people have to backlash over automation and so that backlash feels novel to them. But that doesn't mean the backlash is actually more extreme now, Luddites captured an attitude about automation's impact on labor and worker rights that is largely absent in today's society.
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
> By replacing labour with robots and not compensating them, you're sending a clear message that you don't respect people and the value that they bring. I see many problems with this statement: - Is a new robot-only company fairer than firing humans at an old company? - Should we as a society forego the benefits of automation, because it makes some people unemployed? - Should there be a robot tax? What is a robot? Is…
> - Should we as a society forego the benefits of automation, because it makes some people unemployed? We as society aren't the beneficiaries of automation, those profits go to private owners. Given that price points exist, the benefits of lowering costs of production are captured by increasing profit margins. After those profits are captured, we as society have to shoulder the burden of caring for potentially thousa…
Or increased diversity, customisation, higher quality, more availability, and because of competition - where it exists, cheaper products and services.
Increased capability leads to demand scaling. Making a road wider will increase traffic to match.
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
it could just be that freeing humanity from the need to work takes longer than we thought are we worse off than we were before industrial automation? I thought the economics said the opposite (even if we exclude the eastern nations that benefits from western job loss from our utilitarian analysis here -- which we shouldn't) that meme was really good btw
> it could just be that freeing humanity from the need to work takes longer than we thought May I suggest your read Graeber's "The Utopia of Rules"? We've created a society which requires us to spend oodles of hours doing bullshit work and administer hundreds of bullshit services. We could easily feed, house, clothe, entertain, and care for everyone with 25 hour work weeks. We (as a society) just chose not to.
Assuming zero innovation or growth, yes. If a society is comfortable opting into declining relative living standards, they should have the right to do so. But framing this is a costless trade-off is facile.
Better argument: we can afford to feed, house, clothe and care for every American, possibly, almost every human. (The long tail is exhaustingly costly.) But it would come at the expense of some peoples’ lifestyles, majorly, and everyone’s, in small ways. It almost certainly doesn’t occur with a reduced work week and current adolescence/education and retirement expectations.
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
I enjoyed seeing a meme the other day (rare for me to enjoy!) that summed it up as something like - "Having to do manual labour to make ends meet while the robots paint and write poetry was not the future I had in mind". And I think that sums up the feeling quite well. I do agree that automation in general has not paid off in the way the utopians would predict - instead of freeing humanity from the need to work, we h…
Distributing the fruits of production equally has been tried several times. The result is everyone becomes equally poor.
The US went like: socialism is bad, let's go for the polar opposite and make the poor poorer and the rich richer. For many that are poor in the US people "being equally poor under socialism" is not the threat you think it is, even for the ones that currently go the authoritarian route. Something is brewing in the US and it is an explosive mixture — you can squeeze out only so much from the people without things going sideways.
Re: Rethinking the Luddites
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
Tv and Hollywood writers in one of the most culturally exported countries in the world striked for several months with specific anti AI demands, which were then capitulated to today.
If Hollywood wants to cede its business to other countries...