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Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

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Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#171

Post by tomjen3 »

wpietri wrote: post #135
rimantas wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in the end there will be no jokes. > I think we all agree that if somebody's feeling upset by > the jokes, it's not a huge loss to our comedic palettes > to have to find another source of humor, right? No. I strongly strongly disagree. I don't want a thermal dead of society, I don't want knee-jerk reaction to anything I say because I just mentioned some forbidden word, no matter with what intention and what conte…

> And in the end there will be no jokes. Not at all. This like saying "If we can't say anything hurtful, what is there left to say?" You can be funny without being an asshole. And in a professional context, you shouldn't be an asshole at all.

This is a start-up. Start-up. Not a suit company. People get jobs in start-ups because of no the no bullshit attitude.

And I challenge to provide a joke nobody can object to.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#172

Post by rada »

vasco wrote: post #5

I think this would never happen where I live. Honestly this seems like its the same thing as you guys in the US not being able to say merry christmas because it might offend someone. What's so wrong with being offended anyway? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs&t=3m30s I think people over there just take everything to seriously.

You've posted your comment on a community forum that is heavily US-centric. You clearly like the culture, or you wouldn't be here. Perhaps you could then allow that "our" values are worthy of more consideration than your comment seems to suggest? Just a thought.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#174

Post by tomjen3 »

efsavage wrote: post #20
jtreminio wrote: post #2

sex·ist [sek-sist] adjective 1. pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism: a sexist remark; sexist advertising. sex·ism [sek-siz-uhm] noun 1. attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. 2. discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women. I don't think the bot is exactly sexist. It's stupid…

IANA sociologist, but I'd consider TWSS (or the much rarer TWHS) one of those "undertones" types of biases like always asking the female co-worker to take notes or the male co-worker to help you move your desk. Anyways, I think her response was a good one. I would hope that simply asking whoever was running it to shut it down would be sufficient, but I think writing a bot was a good way of making your point in a grou…

Undertones? You mean the classical 'you are guilty and won't admit it'?

As for when it should be shot down -- when a majority don't think it is funny. It is called company culture and unless you believe females should have special protection because they are an inferior sex they will properly have to get used to it.

And the reason we ask a male to move the desk is because they tend to be physically stronger (with exceptions, I couldn't lift myself of the floor). I haven't asked any females to write notes since grade school.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#175

Post by batista »

jasonlotito wrote: post #38
unalone wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? What do you want? We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave, because it's rude to tell people there's something innately wrong with their behavior. Also it takes so much time and effort on our parts to try and behave like better people that it hardly seems like we should bother. The problem, for many people, is not that the issue is being handled indelicately. It's…

> We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave... > As you can see I've got perfectly rational explanations for why I'm so irritated by women calling out sexist behaviors. > I want them to stop calling things sexist so that I can stop worrying about their feelings. > I just thought it was funny that Dave said something that sounds like sex talk, and wanted all of you to know!…

That being said, it's sad that I could actually see someone really believing this.

That being said, and this being the internet, do you realize how silly you look to other cultures that don't give a flying duck about those so-called issues, and can take a joke?

(And it's not like people from those other cultures don't worry about the larger issues re: equality, sexism etc, it's that "that's what she said" it's NOT where they are at all).

You wanna do something positive? How about doing something for the millions of homeless people in your own country? --now, THAT's a discrimination if I ever saw one. How come I see people tirelessly blogging about those non issues and never about those kind of things?

According to the US Department of Housing and Urban Development, there were 643,067 sheltered and unsheltered homeless persons nationwide as of January 2009. Additionally, about 1.56 million people used an emergency shelter or a transitional housing program during the 12-month period between October 1, 2008 and September 30, 2009.

A random joke (say, a picture of a girl in bikini is some presentation) is "sexism" and "prevents more women from going to programming conferences"?

Well, not having a bloody house is social exclusion, and prevents homeless people for getting shelter, proper rest, care, running water, electricity, reduces chances of getting a job, and also prevents them from going to programming conferences. Men AND women.

(Not that I take any offense with the woman writing the bot. She seems like she can take a joke fine, and she did a joke in response -- it's all those other people blowing non-issues out of proportion that get me).

Prudes...

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#176

Post by unalone »

batista wrote: post #175
jasonlotito wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We want women to shut up and stop telling us that there's a problem with how we behave... > As you can see I've got perfectly rational explanations for why I'm so irritated by women calling out sexist behaviors. > I want them to stop calling things sexist so that I can stop worrying about their feelings. > I just thought it was funny that Dave said something that sounds like sex talk, and wanted all of you to know!…

That being said, it's sad that I could actually see someone really believing this. That being said, and this being the internet, do you realize how silly you look to other cultures that don't give a flying duck about those so-called issues, and can take a joke? (And it's not like people from those other cultures don't worry about the larger issues re: equality, sexism etc, it's that "that's what she said" it's NOT wh…

Yet another common trope in gender discussions is this idea that people shouldn't complain about sexism because there are more important things to worry about.

We are complex machines that are capable of worrying about multiple cultural issues at a time. This is an issue. If there are things you'd rather us focus on, write a blog post, start a thread, make something. Don't try and derail this one, because it's relevant to many, many people, and it's a serious issue in this industry.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#177

Post by AkThhhpppt »

eaten_by_a_grue wrote: post #170
AkThhhpppt wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if that complaint results in the rule "no bots on IRC," she wins. She has co-workers who are ignoring how their thoughtless behaviour is impacting her, even after she's told them. She'd be entirely justified taking it to HR, but instead she's social engineering a more subtle solution. Nice work!

> And if that complaint results in the rule "no bots on IRC," she wins. No, maturity and people with refined senses of humor win :) I think having that phrase repeated to the extent of making a bot is idiotic, I think her solution is far more entertaining to read, and I am irritated by unalone's suggestion that "that's what she said" unequivocally objectifies women. That's all of my feelings for this thread.

Ok: her colleagues disrespect her enough to ignore her request for them to stop doing something that makes her uncomfortable. Doesn't matter what the behaviour is, it should at least be addressed. Basic issue of respect for one's co-workers.

See you around. ",)

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#178

Post by geekchick77 »

Update: The creators of the TWSS bot at work volunteered to take it down a few days after my original blog post went up. It is no longer in the channel. Many people seem to have missed that some of my coworkers didn't like TWSS, either, and many of them thought the TWSRS bot was great.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#179

Post by mahmud »

tomjen3 wrote: post #165
zachinglis wrote: post #151

I think this issue is obviously on a per-company basis. We have a light-hearted attitude towards TWSS jokes here in the office because the female members are as just as bad as any one of the males. We also do Thats What He Said. Jessamyn was obviously uncomfortable, and that's when it should have stopped. Without question. I don't think her gender was a deciding factor in that, more so sensibilities. I appreciate her…

She definitely did the right thing by not complaining to management but a startup is not a suit company and therefore there are things that go on there that would not have been accepted in a suit company. There are plenty of employees who like their company that way and if she didn't she is not really suited for the company culture. She can (and should) seek employment elsewhere. She will be better of there. Finally…

What a pile of drivel.

People have the right to work in non-hostile environment. If she found something offensive, her concerns SHOULD have been addressed. It's a loss for society if everyone who has ever been bullied at work had to quit their jobs. It costs the community tax revenues; it costs the employer productivity and a good worker; and it costs the employee their income. Nothing good comes out of harassing people at work. Descriminatory behaviour at work MUST be addressed, on the spot, by everyone.

Don't mythologize startups as a "non suit environment where everything goes". Suit-firms don't have a monopoly on dignity and favorable work environments. Don't sell yourselves short in your eagerness to please and fit in.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#180

Post by wpietri »

Strallus wrote: post #72
DanBC wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a little bit hetero normative. About the sexism: She didn't make a big fuss. She just coded a neat funny bot that only talks when triggered by a certain joke. She's highlighting how tiresome some jokes are when repeated too often. She's not say "Toxic Environment because of constant sexist remarks"; she isn't calling for anyone to be disciplined or sacked. She's just talking to people.

I'm not calling her out for making a big fuss. I was just pointing out that, as far as I can tell, this joke really doesn't have its root in sexism. Other people are saying the joke is sexist, I'm saying it's not. That's all.

You just made an important logical error. You went from "I can't see X" to "X does not exist".

As a fellow guy, let me tell you: it is much harder to see something when it benefits you than when it hurts you. You may never notice two steps up to enter a building -- unless you're in a wheelchair. So you should never assume that sexism doesn't exist just because you haven't noticed it yet.

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