Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot • Hacker News Board

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#121

Post by ElliotMingee » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:43 PM UTC

unalone wrote: post #108

rimantas wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And in the end there will be no jokes. > I think we all agree that if somebody's feeling upset by > the jokes, it's not a huge loss to our comedic palettes > to have to find another source of humor, right? No. I strongly strongly disagree. I don't want a thermal dead of society, I don't want knee-jerk reaction to anything I say because I just mentioned some forbidden word, no matter with what intention and what conte…

> To quote Stephen Fry: "So fucking what?". Fry was saying that in response to people who were offended by his being gay. I hope you find at least a little humor in the fact that you've taken a quote from a man trying to fight bigotry and used it to defend bigotry? No? It's not thought-crime to say, "Hey, women are people too, and women are way more interesting when they're treated like people, not like sex toys." It…

While I wholly agree with 95% of your post, especially your liberal use of comedians as references, I think the whole basis of this "that's what she said" is grossly misunderstood by those opposing it. It's a phrase that highlights innocent phrases that could have a sexual meaning. Generally, they would be something a woman could say, however I've heard many a "that's what he said" as well. It's a stupid, immature joke that I'm shocked would be propagated by anyone over 17 but let's not ascribe some deep Freudian meaning to something a 15 year old came up with.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#122

Post by evilduck » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

unalone wrote: post #40

tomp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> jokes about what women say in bed are acceptable If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? I can also totally imagine the following situation: Coworker: Did I come too early? Another coworker: That's what he said! Come to think of it, men are also under a lot of pressure in bed, so such jokes are just as in/appropriate as jokes about women in bed.

> If they're actually funny (most of the "That's what she said" jokes are not), why not? It depends on the audience. I think that sexist jokes are in as poor taste in a workplace as racist jokes would be. I'd also be against black jokes or Mexican jokes or Jewish jokes or jokes about Catholic pedophilia. Even if the extent of the joke was something like "I'm not going to the pub with you all, I'm such a Jew", I'd fee…

>Maybe that's fine in moderation, especially if "that's what he said" jokes are mixed in,

What, so we can have a bot that makes fun of women and sexual orientation at the same time?

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#123

Post by JulianMorrison » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #103

hythloday wrote: post #16

"It has been fascinating to watch the ongoing reactions. There have been complaints that we have too many bots in the channel now. There have been complaints about it spamming the channel. There were several “Make them shut up!” responses. These are not reactions I have seen the other bots elicit, certainly not with such intensity. One person even complained about the name being too long, though to his credit he real…

Is it okay if we object to her behavior based on the "Two rights don't make a wrong" rule, or is that somehow also hypocritical.

It's not okay because it (1) assumes a false equivalence - the actual counts are more like "a wrong versus a hundred million wrongs" (2) it puts a burden on the victim of sexism to be perfect, while putting no such burden on the sexists (3) it's a variation on victim-blaming.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#124

Post by ElliotMingee » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

AkThhhpppt wrote: post #105

Strallus wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not calling her out for making a big fuss. I was just pointing out that, as far as I can tell, this joke really doesn't have its root in sexism. Other people are saying the joke is sexist, I'm saying it's not. That's all.

And your qualifications for being able to make this decision for us all are? They wouldn't stop using the bot when she asked them to because it made her uncomfortable. It's been pointed out in these comments that she could have sued this company into a hole in the ground with a chat log and that fact. I think "Judge will probably say it is" says it's sexist.

That's not how logic works... I don't mean to be condescending but, when a word has a specific definition, it's pretty straightforward to determine whether or not it accurately describes a situation. Consider it like a mathematical proof: credentials, judges, and everything else are irrelevant if you've shown the word doesn't apply.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#125

Post by CompiledCode » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:48 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #75

CompiledCode wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give an example? In almost all states, if the wife gets pregnant by another man, the man is still on the hook for child support for the next 18+ years... even if she divorces him and marries her lover. I can't think of an equivalent anti-female law with such devastating long-term impact on the woman. I know this message might be off tangent for the HN board. But if we're discussing anti-female sexist culture…

Your argument says "since (unfair child support laws) then (men treated unfairly) thus not(sexist anti-women culture)" The problem with your argument is that you are not espousing a widely held belief about child support laws being "unfair to men." Thus, a discussion about your argument is likely to devolve into long exchanges about children's rights and anecdotes about ridiculous edge case judgments on both sides. W…

I actually think that "A" is beyond dispute. Your married partner cheats on you, divorces you, marries the biological father of the child, and you are still on the hook for child support? I can't imagine someone NOT thinking with every moral fiber of their being that this is wrong.

Regardless, I think my point is already self-evident in the answers. Which is: we accept without second thought that (A) our society is sexist and women are oppressed and objectified. So A -> B -> C: when a woman claims sexism, we all have to focus on eradicating that sexism immediately (i.e. reign men in). No thought is given to the possibility that the pendulum has possibly already swung too much in the opposite direction, and it is actually the men who are treated unfairly in most cases whenever gender issues come up. Just see e.g. the topic on reddit's front page this morning "I called the cops on my GF after an argument we had got violent, the cops come and arrest ME".

I think any discussion that is about treating both genders equally and fairly that does not take into account current anti-male inequality misses the point. We need to question ALL social conditioning to reach a point where everyone is treated fairly.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#126

Post by Prophasi » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:49 PM UTC

I never took TWSS to be demeaning to women (i.e. sexist), rather that it's usually a generic boast about a guy's prowess.

Would it make a woman more acutely feel in the minority through juxtaposition? Sure. And obviously jokes to do with sex can make ANYONE feel uncomfortable and are probably inappropriate at work, but it depends on where you work.

Making the leap to sexism from that age-old schtick of a guy playing up his junk, though, is a stretch. It's more about the ego of the guy saying it than the hypothetical woman used as a foil.

I wonder if gay guys make TWHS jokes.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#127

Post by unalone » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:50 PM UTC

ElliotMingee wrote: post #121

unalone wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To quote Stephen Fry: "So fucking what?". Fry was saying that in response to people who were offended by his being gay. I hope you find at least a little humor in the fact that you've taken a quote from a man trying to fight bigotry and used it to defend bigotry? No? It's not thought-crime to say, "Hey, women are people too, and women are way more interesting when they're treated like people, not like sex toys." It…

While I wholly agree with 95% of your post, especially your liberal use of comedians as references, I think the whole basis of this "that's what she said" is grossly misunderstood by those opposing it. It's a phrase that highlights innocent phrases that could have a sexual meaning. Generally, they would be something a woman could say, however I've heard many a "that's what he said" as well. It's a stupid, immature jo…

Oh definitely! It's a silly grade-school joke. Which is one of the reasons, I think, why this conversation is so difficult: nobody's thinking "Let me go out and reinforce the patriarchy", twirling their evil mustaches, they're just making a silly joke that incidentally revolves around treating women like objects, TOTALLY UNINTENTIONALLY. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect on society.

Part of my undergraduate thesis, which I'm currently working on, revolves around this idea that when systems break, it's rarely due to anything malicious. It's because life is really weird and complicated and it's hard to design bug-free social structures. But that's why we have to be aware that such bugs exist, and develop ways to fix them when they pop up.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#128

Post by AkThhhpppt » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:51 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #117

illumin8 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize this is just a startup, and many things that wouldn't fly at a large company are considered fun, however, the founders should really think twice about even having a TWSS bot. They are basically providing documented proof in writing of a hostile work environment. Sure, this employee handled it well and had a little fun with it, but there are many more litigious employees that will take your company to the cl…

It bears mentioning that the TWSS bot itself is probably meant ironically - it's satirizing the fact that some people almost mechanically tags on TWSS to anything remotely relevant by actually doing it mechanically. https://github.com/bvandenbos/twss

http://fuckyeahdisingenuousliberal.tumblr.com/post/180255328...

*Yes, people are so sick of "but I'm being ironic" there's Tumblr memes about it.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#129

Post by ugh » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:52 PM UTC

CompiledCode wrote: post #21

So how can I write a bot to fight the sexism in Microsoft's TV ads? You know the ones... where the husband is the bumbling idiot and the wife is the smart capable one who shuts down his plea to play golf on Sundays. I would love to set that bot loose on all TV shows and ads. So often, a flipped situation would cause outrage of being sexist, whereas if the man is put down, it's "funny." It really bothers me, especiall…

I’m honestly curious, what are your reasons for writing this comment? It seems off-topic.

Re: Jessamyn Smith: Fighting sexist jokes with a Python bot

#130

Post by Jem » Wed, Mar 28, 2012, 2:54 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #76

FeministHacker wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ Lighten up, I didn't mean it, I didn't intend to upset you, so it must be ok!

What I said is that where I live its not like this. Girls wouldn't make a fuss about this, and would probably make more sexual jokes then guys actually. So yes maybe in comparison you guys need to lighten up as a society or something.

Making/enjoying sexual jokes in the right context and finding other sexual jokes sexist are not mutually exclusive.