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For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

economist.com

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Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#151
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one would most reasonably hold that it is both a form of exploitation and a form of enrichment. The interesting part of the article is that the biggest benefit has been to those in abject poverty: "Most of the progress has been concentrated among the poorest of the poor—those who make less than $1.25 a day. The bank’s figures show only a small drop in the number of those who make less than $2 a day." One inte…

I think one would most reasonably hold that it is both a form of exploitation and a form of enrichment. Enrichment would leave them -- well, enriched, and exploitation would leave them poorer. These possibilities are diametrically opposed, unless you change the referent of "them" midargument.

I think the problem here is that "exploitation" is very poorly defined. It's widely used concept, and most people have an intuitive sense of what the word means, but these definitions conflict.

Let's step back a moment: Let's say person A has a widget, which he values at $5. Person has $20, and would like a widget, which he values at $10. In a free market we would expect these people to negotiate and reach an agreement where A swaps the widget with B in exchange for between $5.01 and $9.99 of cash. The aggregate benefit of the transaction is $5 (that is, as a society, we are $5 better off after this transaction is made), and A and B are each somewhere between $0.01 and $4.99 better off.

In this simple model, clearly both sides are benefiting, or if you prefer, are being enriched. Question: Is anyone being exploited? Does it depend on the price? Or do we need to know more details about the transaction, and if so, what?

I think most people intuitively have one of two reactions:

1) "Unless fraud or force is being used, of course nobody is being exploited. Both sides enter into the transaction with open eyes, and both sides benefit. They can negotiate however they want to divy up the $5 in benefit - but as long as fraud or force aren't used, this can't be exploitation."

2) "Well, we need to know more. If one side has a lot more power than the other, they might drive the price unfairly far to one side or the other. If A is a large factory churning out widgets, a price of $5.10 might be a perfectly reasonable wholesale price; if A is peasant hand-crafting widgets and B is a multi-national widget trader, maybe anything less than $6 may represent the unfair exploitation of A. Conversely, a price of $9.90 might be fine if B is a collector of rare widgets, but even $8 might be exploitive if B is desperately trying to find a widget to repair his generator after an earthquake. We just can't know."

I don't think either response is inherently more correct - both definitions are valid. But, obviously, they conflict. :) Also, in my experience people rarely, if ever, will change their initial intuition. Either you think exploitation is only the result of fraud or force (ie, using slave labour to produce widgets), or you think exploitation is involved in any transaction with a price that seems "unfair" (to you, based on fuzzy and usually undefined metrics).

As a result, I'm not sure discussions of exploitation really make a lot of sense. Given the same objective and universally agreed facts about, e.g., Foxconn, a certain chunk of the population will say "that's obviously not exploitation" and a certain chunk will say "that's clearly exploitation", despite there being no real disagreement about what's actually taking place on the ground.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#152
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, for all intents and purposes, the gist of the GP is 'oh it's the Economist, they're a bunch of shills, so they're wrong'. I'm not going to argue nonsensical things like what exactly is an ad hominem, it's crystal clear that the GP intended to dismiss the message of the article by saying that because it's from the Economist, it's automatically wrong; i.e., that it's wrong because of who said it and their id…

No, he's not saying that at all. That's explicit if you just read his last sentence.

Just because the ad hominem attack is cloaked some very lazy relativism does not give it substance.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Isn't this just a capitalist supporting publication trying to justify that which it supports?" This is pretty close to ad hominem. No substance, just casting aspersions on the Economist's character.

Calling The Economist "capitalist" isn't much of an aspersion, even if it was meant that way. And an aspersion isn't an ad hominem.

"And an aspersion isn't an ad hominem."

And a tortilla isn't a burrito. But if you put your Mexican fillings of choice in it and wrap it up it is.

An aspersion is in the eye of the beholder, of course. The poster says, don't trust them - they're capitalist. He then qualifies that by saying, well everyone has biases or agendas anyway. To me that doesn't really change the first part.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#154

This is all bullshit, capitalism sucks, everyone needs to slow down and live a little.

modern society, materialism, capitalism, fast-paced, greed, today. Whip these together and you've just made yourself a mediocre high school essay thesis statement.

I would rather read the un-educated essay than your over-educated pseudo-intellectual nonsensical dribble.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#155
post #110

If cited in support of the merits of the capitalist mode of production and growth, the absolute number of people below the threshold of hunger (not universally identifiable as "poverty") as calculated via the parity of a centrally controlled currency declining for the first time ever is absolutely embarrassing. I'd expect producers of post-crisis feel-good statistical acrobatics to set their standards much higher.

Great post aha good to see other Marxist on here. sigh

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#156
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trolling or joking? Your profile indicates you are making good use of capitalism. And, supposing you are serious, what would you replace it with?

"And, supposing you are serious, what would you replace it with?" He wants to replace it with what every anti-capitalist wants to replace it with: a government controlled economy with ridiculously high taxes.

[deleted]

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#157
post #122
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talk about the value of the dollar, when the author takes the metric 2.00$ this is relevant. The official inflation rate is in almost all cases totally wrong, because it takes way too few factors into account. This is a separate topic, how the inflation should be calculated. I think just that currency exchange rates are a better way to predict inflation trends.

"The official inflation rate is in almost all cases totally wrong" is a nonsensical statement. "Inflation" is not a uniform concept, to quantify it you have to take a certain basket of goods (the definition of which depends on the purpose of the exercise) and their nominal values and calculate the difference (or rate of change) of samples at various points in time. Furthermore, "inflation" is only relevant for nomina…

I can't believe I'm defending him, but he does have - perhaps accidentally - two semi-valid points.

First: PPP and inflation are both calculated using a basket of goods - the exact basket differs between researchers or institutions. Typically you want your basket to be fairly broad, and reflective of the goods and services people actually buy. But the very poor buy a different mix of goods and services than the average person - even the average person in a very poor country. IF the price of the most basic staples has increased more than the price of other food, or if the price of food in general has increased more than the price of durable goods and appliances, then the PPP adjustment used by the World Bank for, e.g., Uganda MAY misstate the actual purchasing power of the very poor[1].

Second: If you think that official inflation rates are being tampered with[2] then you may look at other metrics than should drive inflation. One such is exchange rates. If the Canadian dollar is weakening against a trade-weighted basket of other currencies, then the purchasing power of the CAD is declining. (Or if you prefer, if a lot of CAD is being printed, then we have more supply of CAD, and lower demand, resulting in lower exchange rates.) In any case, this should be reflected in inflation. If it isn't then either there is a big untapped arbitrage opportunity[3], the inflation statistics are wrong, or (more than likely) there is some other factor at work[4]. So, no, you really can't use exchange rates to predict inflation, but you almost can. :)

[1]: In other words, it COULD be that the bank is saying that someone living on $2 a day is better off now than a year ago, because coffee makers are so much cheaper that it gives them more money to buy rice, which has only increased a little bit. But if the very poor only buy rice and not coffee makers, they could be worse off now since everything they actually purchase is more expensive, even if the "basket" is cheaper overall. The choice basket of goods matters, and it needs to be appropriate for the group being studied.

[2]: This can and does[5] happen. It could be as simple as fudging numbers, or it could be more complex - for example, my picking an unrepresentative basket of goods. In the US, the most common measure of inflation - CPI - excludes food and fuel costs. This is very appropriate for picking up monetary inflation, but less so for calculating the actual change in living costs people are experiencing. As you say, inflation is not a uniform concept; if a government pretends it is they can pick a measure favorable to them.

[3]: In this case, you could buy CAD using your local currency, purchase goods inside Canada for CAD, export them, and then sell them for your local currency. This would drive the CAD up, and/or drive the prices of goods inside Canada up, until the change in the exchange rate matched inflation. And people seeking such arbitrage opportunities is one reason why inflation and changes in exchange rates tend to match, very broadly, over the long term.

[4]: And there usually is; exchange rates are incredibly noisy, and influenced by everything.

[5]: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/07/11/but-why-i...

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#158
post #150
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, we are spending alot of money on development, not just countries but NGOs too. Mostly in a bad way (somethimes with very good intentions sometimes with with not so got intentions). "Its very simple: the distribution of things is just quite unfair, deliberately so. Many countries are actively repressed. The World Bank provides loans as a mechanism of economic warfare or modern-day colonization. Again, a major p…

Blame the victim much? Its a lot more malicious than you think. The countries aren't doing anything that makes them deserving of being exploited. http://www.johnperkins.org/

Didn't I write this: "I do not think that they deserve what they get but I would say that it is in part there fault."

A sovereign nation can only be forced with arms ever thing else is just strong insentives. There is a diffrence.

The book however is on my readinglist, I have heard alot about it.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#159
post #94

I think it's called inflation

You should call them and let them know that you cracked the case, because 1000's of economists and development workers worldwide who have dedicated their lives to studying these issues cannot hold a candle to the kind of brilliant insights you can bring forth after just 10 seconds of pondering them /sarcasm .

I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I really think that inflation is a big part of it, and that the way we currently measure inflation can be misleading, especially since CPI is measured sans energy/food costs. A large part of the Arab Spring had to do with climbing food prices. It's true that conditions around the world are getting better as people gain more access to clean water, energy, education, etc, but using a benchmark "$1.25" to measure poverty misses the point. I should have explained my comment with more depth.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#160
post #157
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The official inflation rate is in almost all cases totally wrong" is a nonsensical statement. "Inflation" is not a uniform concept, to quantify it you have to take a certain basket of goods (the definition of which depends on the purpose of the exercise) and their nominal values and calculate the difference (or rate of change) of samples at various points in time. Furthermore, "inflation" is only relevant for nomina…

I can't believe I'm defending him, but he does have - perhaps accidentally - two semi-valid points. First: PPP and inflation are both calculated using a basket of goods - the exact basket differs between researchers or institutions. Typically you want your basket to be fairly broad, and reflective of the goods and services people actually buy. But the very poor buy a different mix of goods and services than the avera…

Well yes one can argue about the basket used in the referenced study. I haven't looked into which one was used exactly, but in my experience of working with UN data (of which the WHO is a part), their measurement methodologies are usually quite sound and well-reasoned (of course you can always find something imperfect in the margin, especially for decisions made in the past and that haven't been changed to make it possible to measure change over time, but I'm talking overall). But that's quite a difference from the claimed and unsubstantiated 'totally wrong'.

For the second point, I don't think I'm fully understanding. Yes you can use exchange rates as a proxy or second-order measurement for inflation (measurement, not prediction, unless I'm missing something); but I fail to see the relevance of that for the current study, since we're (presumably, again I haven't studied the methodology and more specifically basket used to measure inflation/PPP in that much detail) talking about goods that are relatively little influenced by exchange rates (i.e., much of the consumption of the people on those 2$ budgets is local and based on subsistence farming and local trade).

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