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For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

economist.com

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Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#101

Post by randallsquared »

huxley wrote: post #97
InclinedPlane wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that a skewed sense of what's going on in the world can give you a skewed sense of how to improve the world. Case in point: many people imagine that the developed world buying cheap goods and labor from the developing world is a kind of exploitation rather than a form of enrichment. It also tends to focus on exceptional events rather than on broad trends (positive or negative).

I think one would most reasonably hold that it is both a form of exploitation and a form of enrichment. The interesting part of the article is that the biggest benefit has been to those in abject poverty: "Most of the progress has been concentrated among the poorest of the poor—those who make less than $1.25 a day. The bank’s figures show only a small drop in the number of those who make less than $2 a day." One inte…

I think one would most reasonably hold that it is both a form of exploitation and a form of enrichment.

Enrichment would leave them -- well, enriched, and exploitation would leave them poorer. These possibilities are diametrically opposed, unless you change the referent of "them" midargument.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#102

Post by ma2rten »

roel_v wrote: post #92
ma2rten wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I had though about this issue some more and I looked up this type of research. So my actual point of view is a little bit more nuanced then what I wrote in the parent post. However, I though it would be helpful to start with a proactive thesis to get people thinking about this issue. Often people in the West just see people in Africa as victims, based on what they see in the media. Start seeing them as huma…

"However, I though it would be helpful to start with a proactive thesis to get people thinking about this issue." Well sorry to sound like a grumpy grandpa, but if anything, this site needs less posts of higher quality, not more empty posts with the explicit goal of provoking replies. "How come the suicide rate in Africa is much lower (close to zero) than in Europe?" First, correlation between depression and suicide…

Well sorry to sound like a grumpy grandpa, but if anything, this site needs less posts of higher quality, not more empty posts with the explicit goal of provoking replies.

I assume you mean more posts of higher quality. I agree with you in general, except that I know no site where the density of high quality posts is so high as here. If it was any higher, I would probably be afraid to post anything. However, social science works different than the topics the discussion is usually about on this site. The best university professors often start their courses by asking provocative questions, which make the students think for themselves. Sometimes the question is more interesting than the answer, if it provokes thought.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#103

Post by robrenaud »

roel_v wrote: post #48
ma2rten wrote: post #29

I have been to Uganda a few years ago to work on a voluntary project. If you see numbers like the number of people living under $1 per day and you see the images on TV you come to think of people in Africa just as pitiful. However, I got the feeling that the people in Uganda are actually more happy than the people in Northern Europe. Maybe wealth is actually inversely correlated with happiness?

There is vast scientific evidence that 'happiness' is positively correlated with 'wealth' (both in quotes to indicate that they're broad concepts, I'm not interested in discussing specific definitions). The scientific history is broadly that in the 1970's, it was thought there was little correlation (the 'Easterlin paradox'), in the 1980's and 1990's it was thought there was correlation up to some point of wealth (e.…

Since you seem like you know a lot about this issue, is this consistent with other research that happiness plateaus for people who make 75k/year?

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/09/07/the-perfect-salary-fo...

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#104

Post by aquateen »

roel_v wrote: post #50
alan_cx wrote: post #40

Isn't this just a capitalist supporting publication trying to justify that which it supports? Poverty groups would, rightly, do the same thing. No criticism, but, well, they would wouldn't they? That's the way it is. Don't we all "big up" that which we believe in? Trouble is, every one has an agenda and its really hard to ever know the truth. I have no idea if this is self serving fantasy or reality.

Instead of ad hominem attacks, why don't you come with some data to support your accusations? The Economist is one of the last publications with a rigorous policy of publishing original data sources, in this case the World Bank, hardly the obscure special interest group you make it out to be. If you want to offer alternative interpretations of the data, or point out specific methodological flaws, or whatever, by all…

That was not an ad hominem. I really hate that phrase thrown about.

Seems full of questions rather than accusations, and I didn't see obscure mentioned anywhere.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#105

Post by VMG »

kamaal wrote: post #77
ma2rten wrote: post #29

I have been to Uganda a few years ago to work on a voluntary project. If you see numbers like the number of people living under $1 per day and you see the images on TV you come to think of people in Africa just as pitiful. However, I got the feeling that the people in Uganda are actually more happy than the people in Northern Europe. Maybe wealth is actually inversely correlated with happiness?

>> Maybe wealth is actually inversely correlated with happiness? No, Its probably Ignorance is bliss. Just take them around a trip across Europe and you will see that their happiness will vanish. Peer comparisons are a major reason why many people loose their happiness.

Wouldn't watching TV have the same effect as a Europe trip?

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#106

Post by dagw »

VMG wrote: post #105
kamaal wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Maybe wealth is actually inversely correlated with happiness? No, Its probably Ignorance is bliss. Just take them around a trip across Europe and you will see that their happiness will vanish. Peer comparisons are a major reason why many people loose their happiness.

Wouldn't watching TV have the same effect as a Europe trip?

I'd guess that it's a lot easier to rationalize away what you see on TV ("it's just a made up story, selective editing, propaganda etc.").

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#107

Post by paulhauggis »

ars wrote: post #11
thomasdavis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it disgusting that you could even try talk of capitalism in a good light. I'm sure citizens would also find it absolutely degrading.

Are you trolling or joking? Your profile indicates you are making good use of capitalism. And, supposing you are serious, what would you replace it with?

"And, supposing you are serious, what would you replace it with?"

He wants to replace it with what every anti-capitalist wants to replace it with: a government controlled economy with ridiculously high taxes.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#108

Post by PaulMcCartney »

This is good news. However, I believe the reason we think poverty is bad is because we associate it with a poor quality of life. In this vein, poverty is only one slice of the pie. Other factors must still be considered such as, do these people have sufficient medical resources available to them and are they living in middle of a war? What goods are they deprived of and what evils are they plagued by?

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#109

Post by alexro »

patrickk wrote: post #96
kamaal wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well England wasn't a very rich country before 'Sun never sets on the British empire' era. And they aren't a very rich country now, after they lost all their colonies. I don't wish to be harsh here, but how much of west's wealth is their own hard earned through their sweat is a question to ask.

Several former British colonies are now wealthy, first-world nations e.g. Ireland, Australia and America. Being an empire at one period in history would explain why a country was much wealthier than others, but not anymore - now it's trade. Just look at the rise of China. (Some might argue that America is a de facto empire today, but even then most of its wealth is due to trade).

Most of the USA wealth is due to the monetary system with the dollar on top. Call it trade if you like.

Re: For the first time ever, the number of poor people is declining everywhere

#110

Post by mgunes »

If cited in support of the merits of the capitalist mode of production and growth, the absolute number of people below the threshold of hunger (not universally identifiable as "poverty") as calculated via the parity of a centrally controlled currency declining for the first time ever is absolutely embarrassing. I'd expect producers of post-crisis feel-good statistical acrobatics to set their standards much higher.
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