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LARPing and Violent Extremism

leb.fbi.gov

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Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#71

Post by HarryHirsch »

ethbr1 wrote: post #66
HarryHirsch wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blatant lying from law enforcement that the citizenry has to deal with on a daily basis is underappreciated. The US has a legal system that permits a police office to say anything, but a citizen must not lie to a police officer. The Miranda warning is not a good sign - it reminds the citizen that the government can and will use anything a citizen says for its own purposes.

That's a weird way of looking at the Fifth Amendment. You have the right to say nothing.

Yes, but I would prefer not to exercise that in court, it would be better if the government behaved itself towards its citizens. You also have the constitutional right to a speedy trial, but in practice that doesn't look hot either.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#72

Post by ethbr1 »

murderfs wrote: post #64
ethbr1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blatant lying that law enforcement has to deal with on a daily basis is uderappreciated. The US has a legal system that permits a defendant to say many things, like "My buddies and I were participating in a fantasy scenario where we plotted in detail and collected supplies to kidnap the governor of our state... but it was just a game. Like those other people who play games!" Good for the authors in making an effo…

> The US has a legal system that permits a defendant to say many things, like "My buddies and I were participating in a fantasy scenario where we plotted in detail and collected supplies to kidnap the governor of our state... but it was just a game. Like those other people who play games!" You can even get acquitted for it because it turned out that the FBI was the dungeon master all along: https://chicago.suntimes.c…

5 guilty convictions, 4 guilty pleas, and 5 not guilty verdicts seems like a balanced justice system? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_...

Conspiracy plots are hard to prosecute, because who-did-what-when-with-what-intent is complex.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#73

Post by Jensson »

ethbr1 wrote: post #62
Jensson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

You're looking at this from an assumption-of-LARPing. Imagine an FBI agent looking at evidence of Timothy McVeigh at a gun show in 1994. He's selling a flare gun he claims can 'shoot down an ATF helicopter' and ATF hats with bullet holes in them. When interviewed without charge, imagine McVeigh claims that it's part of his LARPing activities. What standards would you suggest that agent applies, in order to avoid a fa…

Your example just proves that this document doesn't hold water, he did that in public and didn't care about people seeing what he did, so the document would suggest he was LARPing for real.

I don't see how this document would help find criminals and help free innocents. It seems to give way too rigid guidelines that will be misused by many officers.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#74

Post by [deleted] »

Jensson wrote: post #46
crazygringo wrote: post #24

I was definitely confused by this article at first, thinking it was some silly guide for law enforcement which can't tell the difference between criminals and LARPers...?? But no -- it's actually about terrorists and criminals trying to claim in court that their criminal planning wasn't that at all, but just LARPing: > For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Govern…

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

[deleted]

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#75

Post by Jensson »

georgeecollins wrote: post #53
Jensson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

I agree with the top post that the title confused me. But reading the article I came away with a very different take than you. This person is trying to define the difference between LARPing and being terrorist. That may be obvious to someone who knows LARPers, but not everyone does. I really don't think that the police are going to be a problem for people in fantasy gear, cosplaying, or re-enacting a historical battl…

> I really don't think that the police are going to be a problem for people in fantasy gear, cosplaying, or re-enacting a historical battle. I have never heard of it.

But now with these guidelines police has a reason to go after them. Something like: "I just followed these guidelines, it says you are showing terrorist signs and aren't real LARPers".

They didn't do that before, but guidelines like these changes behavior and can easily make things worse.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#76

Post by ethbr1 »

Karunamon wrote: post #65
ethbr1 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at this from an assumption-of-LARPing. Imagine an FBI agent looking at evidence of Timothy McVeigh at a gun show in 1994. He's selling a flare gun he claims can 'shoot down an ATF helicopter' and ATF hats with bullet holes in them. When interviewed without charge, imagine McVeigh claims that it's part of his LARPing activities. What standards would you suggest that agent applies, in order to avoid a fa…

Another way to phrase that first sentence is "assumption of innocence". And while random commentators on the internet are not obligated to honor it, law enforcement is supposed to.

This document is seemingly targeted on the investigation phase, before a charge has been filed, to distinguish what characteristics legitimate LARPing may have vs militia claims-of-LARPing.

Presumption of innocence does not extend to the initiation of an investigation, but comes into play with increasingly invasive methods (and ultimately, charges).

US law enforcement is empowered to initiate duck investigations on things that quack pretty liberally.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#77

Post by akira2501 »

ethbr1 wrote: post #44
crazygringo wrote: post #24

I was definitely confused by this article at first, thinking it was some silly guide for law enforcement which can't tell the difference between criminals and LARPers...?? But no -- it's actually about terrorists and criminals trying to claim in court that their criminal planning wasn't that at all, but just LARPing: > For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Govern…

The blatant lying that law enforcement has to deal with on a daily basis is uderappreciated. The US has a legal system that permits a defendant to say many things, like "My buddies and I were participating in a fantasy scenario where we plotted in detail and collected supplies to kidnap the governor of our state... but it was just a game. Like those other people who play games!" Good for the authors in making an effo…

Which is why our founders had the good sense to bake jury trials right into the constitution. The focus on law enforcement, who in this particular case, were themselves involved in the "LARPing" to large extent, is bizarre.

The purpose of the criminal justice system isn't to punish every single unruly act. It's to match punishments with the actual crimes committed. It's bizarre to see Hacker News blindly cheering on this document, although, understandably it's because most people probably don't personally like those defendants.

So.. of course it becomes the focus of the top comment.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#78

Post by prepend »

ethbr1 wrote: post #62
Jensson wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

You're looking at this from an assumption-of-LARPing. Imagine an FBI agent looking at evidence of Timothy McVeigh at a gun show in 1994. He's selling a flare gun he claims can 'shoot down an ATF helicopter' and ATF hats with bullet holes in them. When interviewed without charge, imagine McVeigh claims that it's part of his LARPing activities. What standards would you suggest that agent applies, in order to avoid a fa…

> assumption-of-LARPing.

And this seems accurate as the ratio of larping to terrorism is probably millions to one.

Thousands of people larp every day in the US. Terrorism is fairly rare with maybe a few events per year.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#79

Post by pests »

Jensson wrote: post #69
pests wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not "find larpers, check privacy, find crime" Its "find crime, they claim larping, check behavior to verify"

The whole point is to tell the difference between "find larpers" and "find crime", so the rest of those points doesn't say anything. They found some people who did something suspicious, that is point 1, the next step is this document to help tell the difference.

That is what I said.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#80

Post by MC68328 »

Jensson wrote: post #46
crazygringo wrote: post #24

I was definitely confused by this article at first, thinking it was some silly guide for law enforcement which can't tell the difference between criminals and LARPers...?? But no -- it's actually about terrorists and criminals trying to claim in court that their criminal planning wasn't that at all, but just LARPing: > For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Govern…

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

Don't worry, the cops are not going to take away your robe and wizard hat.

But if you're playing pretend with real weapons, you deserve scrutiny, regardless of your ideology.

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