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LARPing and Violent Extremism

leb.fbi.gov

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Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#51

Post by ajb »

Jensson wrote: post #6

> The foremost distinction between LARPers and violent extremists is that genuine role players will not care whether others are watching. They may even embrace third-party observation, such as nonplayer characters or a general audience. After all, LARP is a performance. > Conversely, violent extremists or terrorists want secrecy. This desire may contribute to the sense of clandestine excitement that surrounds them an…

Because rightly or wrongly, for serious violence the law considers not just the violence itself illegal, but also preparatory actions such as planning, sourcing weapons, etc. The bright line "when someone gets hurt" is too late, so analysis like this has to occur so that LARP can be distinguished from practicing before violent action, especially when the latter is claimed to be the former

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#52

Post by slavboj »

lelandbatey wrote: post #4

Some key context, provided if you read the article, is that this exists to outline the difference between LARPing and Violent Extremism, especially as some violent extremists have claimed that their plans of violence were only "LARPing" and not bona-fide terrorism. The exact differences they point out, such as "spectators being welcome" vs "secrecy is paramount" are clear, universal, well thought out, and interesting…

It's not like there isn't a robust history of law enforcement "spectators" trying to railroad participants based on absolutely nothing, including in literal role playing scenarios. Privacy rights exist for a reason.

http://www.sjgames.com/SS/

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#53

Post by georgeecollins »

Jensson wrote: post #46
crazygringo wrote: post #24

I was definitely confused by this article at first, thinking it was some silly guide for law enforcement which can't tell the difference between criminals and LARPers...?? But no -- it's actually about terrorists and criminals trying to claim in court that their criminal planning wasn't that at all, but just LARPing: > For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Govern…

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

I agree with the top post that the title confused me. But reading the article I came away with a very different take than you. This person is trying to define the difference between LARPing and being terrorist. That may be obvious to someone who knows LARPers, but not everyone does.

I really don't think that the police are going to be a problem for people in fantasy gear, cosplaying, or re-enacting a historical battle. I have never heard of it. But LARPing shouldn't be an excuse for people who want to don real tactical gear and weapons and plan mayhem.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#54

Post by Jensson »

parsimo2010 wrote: post #27
Jensson wrote: post #6

> The foremost distinction between LARPers and violent extremists is that genuine role players will not care whether others are watching. They may even embrace third-party observation, such as nonplayer characters or a general audience. After all, LARP is a performance. > Conversely, violent extremists or terrorists want secrecy. This desire may contribute to the sense of clandestine excitement that surrounds them an…

Because they need to provide a reference for when FBI agents in the future have to decide of someone is harmless or not. While this is available publicly, the audience is mostly law enforcement officers and possibly prosecutors. Many law enforcement officers have no familiarity with fantasy hobbies or war reenactment. Pointing out that LARPers use fake weapons and operate in the open is a good thing to point out. It’…

> Pointing out that LARPers use fake weapons and operate in the open is a good thing to point out

So you think it is fine to investigate people who play around on their private property for terrorism just because they don't want you watching? To me that seems very scary and oppressive.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#55

Post by viscanti »

Jensson wrote: post #46
crazygringo wrote: post #24

I was definitely confused by this article at first, thinking it was some silly guide for law enforcement which can't tell the difference between criminals and LARPers...?? But no -- it's actually about terrorists and criminals trying to claim in court that their criminal planning wasn't that at all, but just LARPing: > For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Govern…

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

> These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them.

It sounds like it might be a dangerous time to LARP about and plan terrorist acts. That could be very problematic for those who enjoy that as a recreational hobby. But in some ways there's a precedent for it with flying. Lots of people used to love to LARP about taking a bomb on a plane and that recreational activity has been significantly curtailed. Maybe we're heading for a world where it's no longer safe to plan the kidnapping of state or national government officials and then practice the steps necessary to carry it out, and where we can no longer joke about a bomb look-alike device that we want to take on airplanes.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#56

Post by peyton »

xwdv wrote: post #31
Tao3300 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> users pretend to have fantasies about taking officer's service weapon. Why is this a trend...

To create a paranoia amongst police officers that disproportionately affects minorities.

Assuming you mean negatively affecting minorities, how does that follow from the article:

> Extremism does not exist without identifying an out-group and taking hostile action against it.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#58

Post by HarryHirsch »

ethbr1 wrote: post #44
crazygringo wrote: post #24

I was definitely confused by this article at first, thinking it was some silly guide for law enforcement which can't tell the difference between criminals and LARPers...?? But no -- it's actually about terrorists and criminals trying to claim in court that their criminal planning wasn't that at all, but just LARPing: > For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Govern…

The blatant lying that law enforcement has to deal with on a daily basis is uderappreciated. The US has a legal system that permits a defendant to say many things, like "My buddies and I were participating in a fantasy scenario where we plotted in detail and collected supplies to kidnap the governor of our state... but it was just a game. Like those other people who play games!" Good for the authors in making an effo…

The blatant lying from law enforcement that the citizenry has to deal with on a daily basis is underappreciated.

The US has a legal system that permits a police office to say anything, but a citizen must not lie to a police officer.

The Miranda warning is not a good sign - it reminds the citizen that the government can and will use anything a citizen says for its own purposes.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#59

Post by HWR_14 »

Jensson wrote: post #46
crazygringo wrote: post #24

I was definitely confused by this article at first, thinking it was some silly guide for law enforcement which can't tell the difference between criminals and LARPers...?? But no -- it's actually about terrorists and criminals trying to claim in court that their criminal planning wasn't that at all, but just LARPing: > For example, after Kaleb Franks was arrested in October 2020 for plotting to abduct Michigan Govern…

It isn't just courts, these are for police officers in general, they say it near the top "which may be helpful to both law enforcement and prosecutors if suspects of targeted violence claim they were playacting". These standards will likely make officers go after more genuine LARPers than before. These tips are very problematic if police officers start to follow them, for example: > Role players will not discuss law…

This isn't "seek out LARPers". This is "how do I distinguish a group of people in the woods running around in camo as LARPers or violent extremists". They found the people first.

Re: LARPing and Violent Extremism

#60

Post by slavboj »

"Role players will not discuss law enforcement concerns on social media or provide guidance to each other if confronted by an officer. Also, they will have no demonstrated interest in criminal cases involving claims of LARP."

Your resistance proves your guilt. Insisting on your fourth and fifth amendment rights? Noting other cases where innocent hobbyists were threatened and trying to avoid the same? Seems like violent extremism.

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