Live data from Hacker News

Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

cam.ac.uk

141–150 of 169 posts

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to be suggesting that humans are capable of perceive objective truth for non trivial things. I believe that for situations where a single human has enough information and ability to ascertain the truth, most humans deliberately will not make a beeline for the truth. They sort of veer off to the side towards a half truth that better suits their situation. None of this is a conscious choice though. Self dece…

Obsession with truth isn't necessarily advantageous for success at the species level. I mean who cares if some guy running a convenience store or writing an email client thinks the world is flat? Maybe we just need a small aberrant percentage of the population so there will always be a few people "shorting" the status quo for cash and occasionally preventing extinction.

We don't have the mental bandwidth or responsiveness to perceive reality. Our brains use shortcuts to observe and think. These lead to errors.

We didn't need to be perfect to get to this point. Just good enough to beat the environment and the other meat sacks.

Predictiveness of a mental model is the the closest we can get to understanding reality.

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#142

When ever this notion comes up i cant help but wonder how good crashing and burning thanks to ignoring reality is for your mental health. Just because stuff isnt nice doesnt mean its safe to ignore. Its worth mentioning that dealing with negative thoughts and experiences is part of how we grow as people. Its why Bambis mother got shot in a Disney movie. Because sooner or later, kids have to deal with harsh stuff. Unf…

That's not the point of the study. Many negative thoughts are safe to ignore. There's a difference in dealing with realitiy and wallowing in negativity for its own sake, or because of some freudian bullshit.

>That's not the point of the study.

Be that as it may, there is a big difference between not wallowing and ignoring/suppressing something. Especially if you leave Freud out.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suppress

Suppression implies force and a struggle. Its quite different from not dwelling.

I am pretty sure we are talking two ends of the same spectrum with an upper and a lower bound. The reason its worth pointing out is that the simplification otherwise creates new problems due to overcorrecting. While not pointlessly dwelling on negative stuff is certainly good advice, it doesnt mean suppressing negative stuff you havent dealt with is a good idea in the long run. Suppressing the knowledge of information that create negative emotions is a bad idea since its very likely valuable information you will need in the future to not repeat your mistakes. One is a problem with agency over emotions and reactions, one is a practical functional problem.

I think the reference to Freud and suppression might be a not thought through attention grab on part of the authors. Different to what their press statement says, what they have found does not run counter to accepted narratives. While i sympathize with the need for funding, this is a dumb spin.

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#143
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure. That is how I would generally use "suppress," I think that's the common conception, but the article seems to be using it more in the sense of shrugging something off; they're asking participants to refrain from imagining certain scenarios while presenting them with stressors. I agree about language and it's been my experience that many disagreements boil down to using different definitions for the same term…

I have been thinking about something similar. I think its usability will drastically improve once you are able to find overlaps and differences in meaning between the perspectives of different people/ideas. I would also suspect that it would be uncommon to not at least fall back on some ingroup definitions, even just for practical reasons. After all, it will likely be rare to learn new vocabulary for individual peopl…

That's interesting. With sufficient data we could probably train a model to come up with an embedding for the definition, and another model to identify which particular passages contribute most to a difference in the embedding (in order to highlight).

If you would be interested in providing feedback on early versions of the project, drop me an email. Likewise, if you pursue a project like that, I'd love to hear about it. No pressure though, and it will probably be two months before I am able to resume the project and start deploying prototypes.

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#144
The WHO has a guide for "unhooking from difficult thoughts and feelings". At one point it says "You cannot stop these thoughts from arising. They are normal and natural. But it is not so helpful to get hooked by them." and then goes on to explain some simple practices to help unhook. https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240003927 Here's more detail about how it was tested. https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/2022-apri...

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#145
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if it's like any technology and trade offs between helping/hurting people. If religions help 95% of people be more loving and 5% be more hateful, would it be a net benefit? Does it depend what those 5% do with the hate or the 95% with the love? What if the percentages were different? Obviously an overly simplistic thought experiment, yet I wonder if we have any way, that isn't arbitrary, to say if a tool is…

It's more like 50/50, though. So in practice it mostly just amplifies authoritarians telling us to either submit or go to hell. The other (loving) half gets so non confrontational we never hear of them again.

I think the "loving" half is often not fully loving but other-loving and self-hating.

"I feel annoyed that this person is doing this thing. But if I say something, they may feel angry, so I won't say something... And then will fight against myself instead."

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#146
post #138
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, Zoroaster has really been dropping the ball in matters regarding sorghum. :-(

Enough already, it's 2023 and I feel like having to maintain legacy sorghum support is just holding religion back. I say drop it out right and focus your prayers on quinoa.

Quinoa has a dedicated deity from the Inca pantheon, Mama Quinoa. I would assume that would provide the best support

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#147
Weirdly, the exact opposite works for me. As someone recently dealing with a measure of anxiety, I found that a 3 step process has helped remove the worst of it.

1. Examine the feeling - Pay attention to the thoughts causing the anxiety. What exactly about it is disturbing? What outcomes are you afraid is going to happen. Think about it like an interesting topic you are hearing about. What questions would you ask?

2. Explore the feeling - Articulate how it makes you feel. Where in your body are you experiencing this feeling? Is your mind racing, your chest tightening, stomach churning? Notice each feeling and where it is happening.

3. Exaggerate the feeling - Take the anxiety causing thought and turn it up to 11. If you are feeling anxious about your job, imagine you not only get fired but the company takes out an ad in the NY times letting everyone in the industry know not to hire you again. If you're anxious about not saving enough, imagine you go bankrupt and have to live in a cardboard box by the street. Don't just imagine the worst case scenario, imagine the nuclear + ebola scenario.

After making a habit of this, I found that my reaction to these thoughts is not as emotionally severe. I don't know exactly why it works but my guess is that when your mental response to stress is disproportionate to the stimuli, the process of examining the thoughts acts as a way of desensitizing the mind to the stimulus whilst keeping some emotional distance from them. The act of exaggeration adds some comic relief to the process and, I find, actually makes me (slightly) look forward to the anxious thoughts ("Ooh, I wonder what crazy scenario I am going to come up with for this one") and replaces the negative feeling (fear, churning) with a positive one (curiosity, excitement).

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#148
I heard a saying once, something like, "thinking too much about the past causes depression and thinking too much about the future causes anxiety." In other words stay in the present as much as possible and fend off invasive thoughts with distractions, hobbies, and helping others.

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the "someone who sees the truth of the world is more likely to be clinically depressed" is related to seeing a truth and not expressing it. Lately I've really been starting to wonder if depression is the opposite of expression. Or in other words, instead of pushing feelings/thoughts out (ex-press), we push them down (de-press). I can say from my experience when I feel very confident that I see what's happ…

No it's not specifically about what you're talking about. People are literally being delusional here. There's a ton science behind this phenomenon. You can listen to that podcast it's quite interesting. Basically they can do quantitative experiments where they have groups of people rate others about how attractive they are 1-10 and through this gather an average rating about someones attractiveness. Then they have th…

I listened to the podcast. In those experiments they described, I feel pretty confident that they're not so much measuring self-deception, but more like self-belief, or faith in oneself.

First, they defined self-deception as "you have two contradictory beliefs, and you hold them at the same time, and you allow one of them into consciousness that you have a motivation for allowing one of them into consciousness."

I don't know if that's so much self-deception, maybe more just trying to resolve an internal conflict and not having certainty over which one is objectively true, because for so many things I believe it's really hard to hold certainty over them being objectively true.

For example, if I believe I'm good at programming and believe I'm bad at programming, which one is objectively true? I could be better at programming than my dad and worse at programming than my friend who is an Apple engineer.

I think they were mostly measuring whether, in uncertainty about one's (or other's) goodness (intentions, abilities, etc.), did they believe they were good or bad?

For example, in the embarrassing questions survey, if people answered yes to they thought about wanting to rape someone, I imagine they probably don't think they have good intentions. And then if someone doesn't think they have good intentions, I imagine they probably feel worse than someone who believes they do have good intentions.

Eight years ago I created a class called Emotional Self-Defense. An ex had sent me an email that said, "Every time I was about to leave, you did something nice so I wouldn't go." And I immediately felt angry, "This girl thinks I manipulated her." Then a few minutes later I felt sad, "Was I manipulating her? I thought I was in love." The next day, after getting a scalp massage, I relaxed on the chair and thought, "I wasn't doing those nice things so she wouldn't go, I was doing them to savor the moment. I wasn't doing those nice things so she wouldn't leave, I was doing them because I thought she'd enjoy receiving them and I'd enjoy giving them." Then I thought, "If I can't trust my own good intentions, who the hell will?"

So I tell people I choose to believe I have good intentions and that others have good intentions because I feel better when I do. Do I know for certain that they or I do? No, and I don't know if I ever will.

The other experiment was about cheating and how a woman can simultaneously think a man is cheating and not cheating. In the podcast, the assumption was, to everyone else, the man was obviously cheating and yet the woman lied to herself because she believed he wasn't. But the opposite can also be true, where, to everyone else, the man is obviously not cheating and yet the woman believes that he is. This has happened to me, where the woman was convinced I was having sex with someone else when that wasn't the case at all.

Lastly, the swimming example seemed to talk more about whether people believed in themselves, as much of the statements seemed like positive affirmations. "We believe we're invincible. Because if we go int here with any other thought there's no chance of us accomplishing our goal." And "It's like I have the ability to catch this person. It's going to happen."

So for me, I don't think it's so much about self-deception and more about self-belief (and other-belief), as I'd argue that people who believe in themselves and others are happier and more successful.

Lastly, they say "that depressed people lie less." But then go on to say, "They see all the pain in the world. How horrible people are with each other and they tell you everything about themselves. What their weaknesses are, what terrible things they've done to other people and the problem is they're right. Maybe it's the way we help people that help them be wrong."

I see a lot of pain in the world but don't think that people are horrible, I think most of us react out of our own pain and want others to join us in the pain. Almost a yearning to not be alone. And therefore I choose to believe that pain and sadness are OK, as they help me feel even closer to other people and to myself. "And the problem is they're right." By what objective measure are people terrible?

I appreciate you continuing with me on this and reinforcing that I listen to the podcast because for many years now I've talked about being honest with oneself and emotional honesty and such, and I think I want to focus more on loving oneself and others. In such conflicts, choosing to believe in our good intentions, our good abilities, our overall goodness instead of choosing to believe in the opposite. So thank you for helping me see this more clearly today.

Re: Suppressing negative thoughts may be good for mental health after all

#150

I suppose it wouldn't be that surprising. Mindfulness for instance teaches you to "let go" of thoughts - which is really just a gentle form of suppression. CBT encourages you to redirect existing negative thoughts in a positive/constructive direction - ultimately steering you away from or undermining the original negative thought - but does not encourage you to do a deep dive on it. Not to mention that Freud was a qu…

> Not to mention that Freud was a quack who was more prone to speculation than to science, so if traditional psychotherapy is based on his work then it is likely built on sand. Wow, that’s rich. Dismissing Freud like this is the most egregious way of conducting a discussion about these topics. Have you also ever thought that Mindfulness and CBT, while effective, are successful in a capitalistic society because ultima…

> Mindfulness and CBT have a solid ground but have become a strong weapon in favor of the preservation of the status quo by convincing us we are just wrong in a perfectly fine environment (which in reality is not fine at all)

Becoming copacetic with the reality you actually live in is necessary to surviving any environment. Even dogs and prisoners understand this. Even the rich get depressed and kill themselves.

The most deranged people you come across are the ones who cannot accept the fundamental shortcomings, toxicities and inhumane dysfunctions of their environment. Most people don't have the guts for rebellion and are best served making the best of their situation. The ones who have what it takes don't complain, they just go immanentize the eschaton.

Look at wartime propaganda/psyops. Your own country will bombard you with positivity. The enemy will bombard you with negativity. One side has an interest in your continued survival. The other is actively trying to kill you.

Post reply on HN