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LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

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Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#231

Responding to a variety of questions made over the years about this: This is a constant intended to be displayed after localizing the constant . Its localized value will primarily be displayed to users whose preferred languages have a short word describing the relationship. But it ALSO needs at least some comprehensible localization in EVERY language, because I can send you a vcard for myself labeling this specific t…

It’s quite amazing how comprehensively Apple has approached internationalization from the beginning.

IIRC correctly, already the Mac UX guidelines in the 80s included non-Latin scripts, right-to-left etc.

Lesson: make no assumptions and be very thoughtful about what seems to be edge cases from your own cultural point of view.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#232
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language. That’s why something like the [proposal] (just use the Chinese name for this relationship) would not be an improvement. I don't exactly agree. Note that this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them. In the other word this constant can…

You, and many people here keep assuming that this is a feature that is unique to Chinese language and/or kinship system. It's the main one that English speakers are probably exposed to; but even in this thread there are mentions of other languages and cultures where this or similar relationships have specific terms and more generic ones like "cousin" simply don't exist. Grouping them all under "Chinese system" is...…

I am Asian but not Chinese, I know what you wanted to say. The problem is though, East Asian kinship systems are pretty similar in the aspect that it recognizes most differences in gender, age, generation and lineage, but there are considerable variations as well. For example I think this particular term has no Korean counterpart. So this term is indeed unique, though some terms would be also shared among those systems. I would say that the label should be replicated for each system in that case.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#233

Responding to a variety of questions made over the years about this: This is a constant intended to be displayed after localizing the constant . Its localized value will primarily be displayed to users whose preferred languages have a short word describing the relationship. But it ALSO needs at least some comprehensible localization in EVERY language, because I can send you a vcard for myself labeling this specific t…

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language. That’s why something like the [proposal] (just use the Chinese name for this relationship) would not be an improvement. I don't exactly agree. Note that this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them. In the other word this constant can…

> this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them

This isn't the case, any more than the English word 'aunt' embeds four terms (your father's sister, your mother's sister, your father's brother's wife, your mother's brother's wife). Plenty of languages distinguish between all four of these relationships. But the English term refers to what we see as a single concept - an aunt.

Most family words have translation difficulties like this. The concepts are usually more generic, more specific, or in some cases incomparable when moving between cultures. This also applies to many other words - even ones for very prosaic objects. The French have a single word which means "metallic object which has a particular shape in order to be able to turn something matching that shape", and they use additional qualifications to distinguish between a door-opening-shaped-metallic-turner and a bolt-undoing-shaped-metallic-turner.

The localization system seeks to avoid 2 things: that when an English speaker adds 'Mary (relationship: Aunt)' as a contact, they have to be asked "Is Mary actually your fathers-sister-aunt or your mothers-sister-aunt?" (Because that person would find it strange and unncessary.) Secondly that where possible, someone who has access to this information in another locale, doesn't see a low-quality translation, in particular one which makes no sense ("US English Kinship Relation �� Mary"), or which is misleading ("Mary is John's father's brother's wife? But I'm married to John's father's only brother!"). The right way to do this is to record a reasonable representation of the intended meaning in the source locale, and to translate into the destination locale. Since English also happens to be the language used for the code, the value "LabelContactRelationAunt" looks less complicated than this one, but it really isn't.

This can be seen by how it will be translated. In a locale where the English concepts encompasses two words, it might be rendered as "(Father-Aunt) or (Mother-Aunt)". In a locale where there are 4, 8 or more relationships which could be described in English as an aunt, they might use something intentionally less specific like "OlderFemaleRelativeNotAGrandmother" rather than a laundry list of possibilities. In others yet it might make sense to use the literal English word, or a contextualization like "Western 'Aunt'", if that's the easiest way to explain the relationship.

Nothing about this is unique to either English or Chinese.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't speak Armenian, but I dated an Armenian woman once, and she told me they have words for familial relationships that we didn't really have concepts for in English.

Like what? English already has all the "twice removed" and other definitions that no one actually uses.

English doesn't have any way of distinguishing between my wife's sister, my brother's wife, and my wife's brother's wife. They are all sisters-in-law. But these 3 relationships are very different for many people in practice. My wife's sister grew up with someone I'm very close to and unlike most other relatives I can't usually badmouth her to my wife. My brother's wife is someone who, like my wife, entered as an adult into a family which I and my brother have always been part of and so might feel threatened by our closeness. And my wife's brother's wife is someone who I can bond with over "we both married into this crazy family and are not really like the rest of them".

And then from my kid's point of view, not only are these all 'auntie' but so is my very own sister.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#235

Responding to a variety of questions made over the years about this: This is a constant intended to be displayed after localizing the constant . Its localized value will primarily be displayed to users whose preferred languages have a short word describing the relationship. But it ALSO needs at least some comprehensible localization in EVERY language, because I can send you a vcard for myself labeling this specific t…

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language.

I disagree insofar as you really need the explanatory text in the documentation to be able to parse the constant’s name correctly, especially if you’re not already familiar with that specific relationship category. It would also be helpful for the documentation to point to the Chinese/Vietnamese/etc. terms to provide context. In that light, a shorter constant name would have been appropriate IMO, for developer ergonomics.

Even if you want to include “full” information, CNLabelContactRelationYoungerMaleCousinNotViaFathersBrother would have been shorter, if I understand the relationship correctly. (The fact that I’m not entirely sure here also indicates that more documentation is needed.)

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uncle/aunt is wildcard relation and means little. Actually in Russian for example it is the same word you use to describe a random person whom you may not even have any relation to

There's a lot of languages where aunt/uncle is just a polite word that children can use to refer to older adults who are not their parents (in some languages there is an upper age limit, where it becomes polite to refer to these as grandma/grandpa).

And some languages where all the different varieties of father's brother's wife have their own distinguishing names, but then there's also a generic term which means 'older person of one gender who usually comes to the house on $HOLIDAY'.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#238
post #227
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, and many people here keep assuming that this is a feature that is unique to Chinese language and/or kinship system. It's the main one that English speakers are probably exposed to; but even in this thread there are mentions of other languages and cultures where this or similar relationships have specific terms and more generic ones like "cousin" simply don't exist. Grouping them all under "Chinese system" is...…

> Grouping them all under "Chinese system" is... let's say culturally insensitive. It’s probably the vast majority of people using it though? Simply by virtue of being such a massive country.

The people actually using the constant are translators.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely do refer to my spouse's sibling's husband as my brother-in-law, I don't think that's that unusual?

Well it can be. To me, my spouse's sibling's husband is just...my spouse's sibling's husband and nothing else. Some vague acquaintance I may vaguely see once every decade when someone die or get married in my spouse family. It really depends how tight knit families are and how families are spread accross the world. I have to take a plane and cross some borders in order to visit my parents or my sibling's and same app…

In the show, they are close and meet up regularly. They even take care of their kids in crisis.

Which also makes sense - siblings who have good relationships meet up often and once having partners, those partners meet up too.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#240
post #227
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, and many people here keep assuming that this is a feature that is unique to Chinese language and/or kinship system. It's the main one that English speakers are probably exposed to; but even in this thread there are mentions of other languages and cultures where this or similar relationships have specific terms and more generic ones like "cousin" simply don't exist. Grouping them all under "Chinese system" is...…

> Grouping them all under "Chinese system" is... let's say culturally insensitive. It’s probably the vast majority of people using it though? Simply by virtue of being such a massive country.

What about India? They alone would reduce China from the 'vast' majority[0].

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_...

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