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LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

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Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#211

Post by ochrist »

Agentlien wrote: post #147
oceanghost wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't speak Armenian, but I dated an Armenian woman once, and she told me they have words for familial relationships that we didn't really have concepts for in English.

In Swedish our words for many relationships follow a very simple system of composing relationships. A few examples: Mor = mother Far = father Bror = brother Morfar = mother's father Farfar = father's father Farmor = father's mother Farfar = father's father Farbror = father's brother Morbror = mother's brother ...

We use the same in Danish, but also uses:

Faster = fathers sister

Moster = mothers sister

You can also use tante (aunt) about these

A farbror or morbror is often called an onkel (uncle).

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#212

Post by ochrist »

lubutu wrote: post #168
Agentlien wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Swedish our words for many relationships follow a very simple system of composing relationships. A few examples: Mor = mother Far = father Bror = brother Morfar = mother's father Farfar = father's father Farmor = father's mother Farfar = father's father Farbror = father's brother Morbror = mother's brother ...

The same is true in Norwegian, but then they go and ruin it all with "oldemor" = "great grandmother", instead of persisting with e.g. "mormormor".

The mother of the oldemor is called tipoldemor, and after that you just add as many tips as you need (in Danish but probably also in Norwegian).

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#213

Post by xyproto »

blablablerg wrote: post #151
Agentlien wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Swedish our words for many relationships follow a very simple system of composing relationships. A few examples: Mor = mother Far = father Bror = brother Morfar = mother's father Farfar = father's father Farmor = father's mother Farfar = father's father Farbror = father's brother Morbror = mother's brother ...

Brorbror.. your brother's brother?

Brorbror and brorbrorbror could be any of the brothers, including yourself.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#214

Post by klausa »

oytis wrote: post #210
yreg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free text field is not machine readable, e.g. for Siri.

What the machine is going to do with this label though?

If you have the relationship setup in your contact, you can tell Siri to call your wife/sister/younger cousin etc.

Siri will also set up the relationship automatically if you tell her to “call my wife”, and don’t have that relationship set - she will ask who your wife is, update the contact, and make the call.

It’s pretty neat if your family names are hard for (English) Siri to understand, because you can just “hey siri call my wife” instead of trying to “hey siri call ”.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#215

Post by klausa »

mulmen wrote: post #207
atq2119 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you have a point, imagine the string appearing in a combo box or other list of relationship kinds. It would be very confusing to have multiple options that are all just "cousin". To solve both that use case and the ones you have in mind, the API could perhaps be extended with a language-aware "normalization" procedure that maps relationship labels in a way that loses information but produces a more canonical la…

That’s not the use case I imagine. When setting relationships in a Chinese localization this option appears with the correct characters in the dropdown. If that contact is shared with an English locale the attribute is still set but it displays as “cousin”.

People can use iPhones in English and be native speakers of languages that make the distinction; why would you hide that information from them?

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#216

Post by yreg »

oytis wrote: post #210
yreg wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free text field is not machine readable, e.g. for Siri.

What the machine is going to do with this label though?

If anything, this label is intended for machine. I know who's my uncle.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#217

Post by klausa »

radicality wrote: post #131
x-complexity wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why though? Where does this actually get used? The first 2 letters of the string make it obvious: "CNLabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter" "CN" These labels are often used in Chinese & similar relationship models. It comes from the dual consequence of tightknit multi-generation families & a dense symbol-derived language. In Chinese, you can derive the term for a given rel…

I think the CN here means that this is part of the Contacts framework, it’s standard Apple naming convention.

This is correct, the website even mentions it, though it's hidden on mobile and hard to notice if you're not familiar with Apple's docs.

At the top there's a black bar that shows hierarchy of where this object is coming from:

> Documentation / Contacts / Data Objects / CNLabeledValue / CNLabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSibli(...)

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#218

Post by klausa »

lifthrasiir wrote: post #141
mercutio2 wrote: post #105

Responding to a variety of questions made over the years about this: This is a constant intended to be displayed after localizing the constant . Its localized value will primarily be displayed to users whose preferred languages have a short word describing the relationship. But it ALSO needs at least some comprehensible localization in EVERY language, because I can send you a vcard for myself labeling this specific t…

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language. That’s why something like the [proposal] (just use the Chinese name for this relationship) would not be an improvement. I don't exactly agree. Note that this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them. In the other word this constant can…

You, and many people here keep assuming that this is a feature that is unique to Chinese language and/or kinship system.

It's the main one that English speakers are probably exposed to; but even in this thread there are mentions of other languages and cultures where this or similar relationships have specific terms and more generic ones like "cousin" simply don't exist.

Grouping them all under "Chinese system" is... let's say culturally insensitive.

_That_ is a reason enough to not use the term from any specific language as a constant name; let enough to not expose that in the UI to users.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#219

Post by klausa »

ralferoo wrote: post #205
lifthrasiir wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language. That’s why something like the [proposal] (just use the Chinese name for this relationship) would not be an improvement. I don't exactly agree. Note that this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them. In the other word this constant can…

I think this UI issue shows a problem in thinking about what the actual problem is that they're trying to solve. This bug is about contact cards , and so the relationship is necessarily between you and the contact. So, it's not like you need to translate 表妹 into English, or differentiate it from 表姐 in English, as it's something you have chosen to describe the relationship. If you just think of them as "cousin" or wha…

>I think it'd be much easier if you could just type what you wanted into this relationship field, maybe with a drop-down or auto-complete for likely options in your language.

Congratulations, you reinvented the exact UI for this that already exists in iOS from first principles.

Re: LabelContactRelationYoungerCousinMothersSiblingsDaughterOrFathersSistersDaughter

#220

Post by layer8 »

tromp wrote: post #195
lifthrasiir wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The constant embeds everything that an English-speaking localizer needs to explain the relationship in a different language. That’s why something like the [proposal] (just use the Chinese name for this relationship) would not be an improvement. I don't exactly agree. Note that this constant embeds two terms, exactly because this particular kinship term does not distinguish them. In the other word this constant can…

> this particular kinship term does not distinguish them Then why not call it CNLabelContactRelationYoungerCousinParentsSiblingsDaughter ?

Because that would include father's brother's daughter, which the Chinese term apparently excludes, hence it then wouldn’t be correct to localize it to the Chinese term.
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