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Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

theguardian.com

111–120 of 176 posts

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#111

the article constantly mentions racism and i don't understand how racism fits into this picture i think when they write things like that it means "we don't mean to expose the racist behavior of certain black students when we spy on them through apps we force them to install", which is pretty crooked all around

I noticed that too and was wondering about it, then I saw this quote:

Critics say the reality is that this risks children from minority ethnic or poorer backgrounds being profiled as being involved in gangs or county lines operations.

So the fear seems to stem from this.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#112

The title made it sound like the schools were installing malware on students' devices, but as far as I can tell this is just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies. I'm not sure I see the problem with schools getting an update that a kid was arrested by police or that their family is on food aid or something. Schools in my area need to know which kids are living in poverty becaus…

> just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies I realize this is a US perspective, but this actually sets off more alarm bells in my head than a school overreaching by installing spyware. The latter can be addressed by direct parental action pretty easily. Government agencies systematically sharing data is a lot harder to solve and if anything is more dangerous. Just because a fam…

Speaking of red flags:

>Staff using the app have told the criminal justice campaign charity Fair Trials that they keep it secret from parents and carers, and admitted many would be concerned about it if they knew of it.

The other red flag is exactly zero examples of how using this data allowed anyone to "safeguard" at-risk youth or to "act quickly" to intervene.

It's profiling, plain and simple. Despite best intentions, it will definitely enable bias (unconscious or not) to be a factor in how children and their families/caregivers are treated.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may shock you, but the teachers aren't the ones delivering the food! Nevertheless, the organisation of services to provide free food to selected kids at home and at school requires a database to record which kids . Such a database is also accessible to schools for obvious reasons. If you have the very HN-y opinion that being on a database is so bad it would be better if the kids stayed hungry that's fine, but pl…

> If you have the very HN-y opinion that being on a database is so bad it would be better if the kids stayed hungry that's fine, but please at least make a token attempt to understand a system before dismissing it. Quite the opposite - my view is that if someone is hungry, then they should be provided food as a basic function of human society. To be honest, I've never heard of this food delivery system from UK school…

The food delivery system is, frankly a bit of a patchwork rather than a national scheme now: there was a national scheme introduced during the pandemic to supply vouchers to kids that would otherwise have received school meals during school closures, and packed lunches to self isolating kids, a lot of campaigns to extend that to regular school holidays spearheaded by the unlikely figure of a professional footballer, and now a patchwork of schemes run by many local authorities covering everything from community organised lunch clubs to vouchers to packed lunch deliveries

If you want to argue it sounds like a mess and would be better as a broad social security scheme I'm not going to disagree (though limiting numbers on it does save governments money...), but either way, it's going to need names and addresses on a database to make it work.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to hold government services such as social services or teachers responsible for childrens safety then this sort of thing is needed. And if you think thats not the job of the state then fair enough thats your opinion but in the UK the status quo is that it is the job of the state to look after vulnerable children/people. This is the heart of the problem. When you start trying to turn people like teache…

Unfortunately 13 years of Conservative Party government means that there's no-one left, apart from the teachers, to do the "something other". Phone up your local UK health trust and ask what the waiting time is for a CAMHS referral (Child & Adolescent Mental Health Service). Here's the first one I googled: 30 months. https://www.oxfordhealth.nhs.uk/camhs/oxon/ndc/assessment/

It's easy to blame the incumbent government - and maybe in that respect there is some justification for doing so - but I doubt the deeper issues here are really about party politics. The previous Labour era was also increasingly authoritarian and Starmer, despite his history as a defence lawyer with an interest in human rights cases, has so far shown little willingness to roll back these kinds of measures. I find that remarkable given the number of large and potentially very harmful data breaches there have been this year alone from police services and other government offices including those with responsibilities for sensitive child protection matters but perhaps it is a sign of the times.

I do worry that our society has just resigned itself to the fact that these intrusions will happen and every now and then someone will suffer very badly as a result but "it would never happen to me". I find that ironic when the original subject was child protection where the main concern is situations that are relatively rare but can be very harmful for the child when they do happen.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just a central database bringing together data from different government agencies I realize this is a US perspective, but this actually sets off more alarm bells in my head than a school overreaching by installing spyware. The latter can be addressed by direct parental action pretty easily. Government agencies systematically sharing data is a lot harder to solve and if anything is more dangerous. Just because a fam…

I'm sympathetic to this, because my own politics are very libertarian. But recently I've gotten more sensitive to cases where we acknowledge that something is the government's job (e.g. protecting kids from violence), but then we insist that that job should be done poorly . I think this has ripple effects, not only in that the job doesn't get done well, but in the culture of how the government works and who chooses t…

Sometimes we don’t use every possible tool for every problem, particularly when the mass externalities may be worse than the individual outcome.

An extreme example is nuclear weapons. You can win any single battle with nuclear weapons. But the world will end. Probably better to slog through trenches, and do the job “poorly”.

Labeling kids based of family situation will indelibly make their situations define them. Many kids living in dysfunction go to school as a refuge from their life. School administrators aren’t social workers, and aren’t in a position to provide psychological and social assistance to kids who need it. A lack of funding for those services doesn’t mean you offload the work to functionaries at the local school. Teachers aren’t trained in these areas either - their forte is education and no matter how much you liked your home room teacher, they weren’t trained in social intervention. But there’s another aspect, around that idea of escape - once you’ve labeled everyone according to their situation, when you walk in the room, you have to assume everyone knows. You can’t let your life at home disappear any more. And not everyone who has access to the information will use it in a caring unbiased way. Many people will see a kid who has various labels of dysfunction associated with them as broken, needing special education, judge outbursts or misbehavior more harshly than an unlabeled kid.

Finally, the entire point outlined in the article was to use information about their situation to flag unknown problems. Just because someone is on social welfare or a family member has a mental health issue, or even a parent is in prison, doesn’t mean they’re being sexually abused or whatever. However by labeling them administrators are explicitly intended to use the label to assume a likelihood of previously unreported abuse.

Many parents are accused falsely of abuse or neglect for normal childhood injuries. They go through the trials of the damned to get their kids back and fend off criminal charges, and criminal charges are indelible on your record and show up in background checks even if you’re found innocent.

So - yes, mass surveillance would likely catch more criminals. But it will also criminalize everyone, and punish many that are innocent. It’s better to disarm and slog through the trenches - and maybe actually fund social workers rather than surveillance startups - than descend into this morass.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#116
post #42
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the real problem is that there exists a system design to allow querying a person's family connections to police interactions. This isn't even just convictions, but basically any accusations or investigations. The wording is kind of vague, but I think this framing is supported by the article. The existence of such a system just seems dystopian. Seems entirely reasonable that issues of domestic violence should be…

The council provides a data flow diagram showing the source of the data: https://www.bristol.gov.uk/files/documents/5972-insight-bris...

Scary. Just having an EHCP (Educational Health Care Plan) is an indicator...

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#117
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of thing where it might be ask for a panopticon where the parents can see precisely what kind of queries are run on their data, by whom and why, with a time limited ability to keep query data secret for police investigations and such. Fighting against this type of data sharing on principle will probably fail because there are some legitimate use cases to Keep the Children Safe for this type of data.…

I'm curious how well a GDPR challenge would fare. There's specific exemptions around data gathering to detect fraud and to solve crimes, but this database has a lot more detail and the lack of consent from families is concerning.

Article 6(1)(e) of the GDPR states that data processing is lawful if it is “necessary for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest or in the exercise of official authority vested in the controller.”

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-6-gdpr/

I assume they would argue public interest … “protect the children” is the blanket public interest clause that allows all sorts of evil behavior.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#118

I guess main the problem is the secrecy. Even the article is unable to say exactly what information the app has, and who has access to it—they mention safeguarding leads being the users, but then talk about how "schools" get notified when a student has an encounter with the police. Does this information get sent only to qualified professionals with clear accountability, or does it get sent to a shared email address t…

There's no secrecy about it, the app, who has access to it and why is explained here: https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/social-care-and-health/...

As I said in the comment you replied to, it should have been proactive. What I see here is that there exists a single page of text somewhere on a government website, waiting for parents to find it if they search around. I didn't see anything in that article about parents being informed the school was even using the app, let alone given a chance to ask questions or, you know, consent.

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do feel like I'm conversing with an LLM that has never attended a school but is tuned to contradict me regardless here! Senior leaders at schools don't need "data" to justify talking one on one to students or to figure out which students seem vulnerable. On the other hand, data is useful for people with actual welfare concerns about a child in establishing if there might be some underlying reason behind the child's…

> I do feel like I'm conversing with an LLM that has never attended a school but is tuned to contradict me regardless here! I very much enjoyed my time at an ordinary human child school and attended the mandatory educational lessons very promptly. There's a balance between using data to identify problems and collecting data which is open to abuse. What concerns me is the apparent indiscriminate use of the data by tea…

> the apparent indiscriminate use of the data by teachers

Where did you get this impression?

Re: Call to shut down Bristol schools’ use of app to ‘monitor’ pupils and families

#120

Can we also have a discussion about the 'normal' behaviour monitoring tools like Classcharts that are used by pretty much every school in the UK? These collect fine-grained data about behaviour throughout the day and link it both to the child but also the people that are near that child. It operates all across the child's school career. I've tried to opt my kids out of this but it's really hard. At best I think they…

I'm so glad I don't have children in school in the UK. There seems to be so much going on that has nothing to do with education. I'm glad that when I was at school in the sixties and seventies in the UK none of that existed and teachers pretty much just taught. How did this sort of thing creep into schools without anyone protesting?

How did it creep in without protest?

"Staff using the app have told the criminal justice campaign charity Fair Trials that they keep it secret from parents and carers, and admitted many would be concerned about it if they knew of it."

I worry that our school system is now made up of teachers and support staff who are still absurdly undervalued and trying really hard to give our kids a good education but then a whole layer of management above them who have lost the plot.

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