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California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

theguardian.com

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Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#41

Post by Georgelemental »

dragonwriter wrote: post #21
Georgelemental wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Water being a human right Human need ≠ human right. By definition, a limited resource cannot be a natural right.

> Human need ≠ human right. By definition, a limited resource cannot be a natural right. Rights aren’t natural, that’s a quasi-religious fiction invoked as a thought-terminating cliché to avoid debate over political ideology, and the bounds you state are simply the dogma of a particular political sect fond of the “natural rights” evasion. Human rights are a matter determined by the conscience of humans, and (while no…

> Human rights are a matter determined by the conscience of humans

…and the laws of physics. If there is physically not enough water around to satisfy everyone's needs, then no amount of agitation about ‘rights’ will change that. A true universal right is not contingent on a particular material situation.

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#42

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

Georgelemental wrote: post #39
em-bee wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what? on the contrary. every human need must by necessity be a right. ignoring human needs is in itself a human rights violation. since water is needed to survive, unless you want to deny people the right to live, water must be a human right.

A human right is universal, something that applies to all times and all places, by virtue of the human's existence. People can try to take them away, but not grant them, because they are already granted by default. If you are marooned, alone, on a desert island, you still have a right to free expression, due process, etc. In contrast, limited resources require active effort to obtain, and even that might not be enoug…

This just seems like petty arguing over the definition of words. Which is resolved quite easily by pointing out that your definition is not the one used by most groups, in particular by the people at the UN who wrote those human rights declarations.

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#43

Post by em-bee »

Georgelemental wrote: post #39
em-bee wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what? on the contrary. every human need must by necessity be a right. ignoring human needs is in itself a human rights violation. since water is needed to survive, unless you want to deny people the right to live, water must be a human right.

A human right is universal, something that applies to all times and all places, by virtue of the human's existence. People can try to take them away, but not grant them, because they are already granted by default. If you are marooned, alone, on a desert island, you still have a right to free expression, due process, etc. In contrast, limited resources require active effort to obtain, and even that might not be enoug…

i don't think that is relevant.

human rights applies to the relationship between people.

stuck on an island i can do all sorts of things, even illegal ones, because noone is there to stop me. so that's not really useful in determining my right to free expression or due process. both only work if there are others to listen or to charge me with a crime.

however, if i am among other people then those people have the obligation to do everything in their power to keep me alive, because that is my human right. and that would include to share their water, or to cooperate to build a desalination plant, or whatever is needed to survive.

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#44

Post by Georgelemental »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #29
Georgelemental wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Water being a human right Human need ≠ human right. By definition, a limited resource cannot be a natural right.

I was talking about humans on earth, that ball floating around made of 71% water, whose salt doesn't boil

Saltwater may be abundant, but it requires energy and infrastructure to desalinate and transport. Nobody would fight over it if those were trivial and unlimited.

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#45

Post by Georgelemental »

parineum wrote: post #17
Georgelemental wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Water being a human right Human need ≠ human right. By definition, a limited resource cannot be a natural right.

Water isn't limited.

Freshwater is limited, the energy and infrastructure to desalinate and transport saltwater are limited.

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#46

Post by [deleted] »

Georgelemental wrote: post #41
dragonwriter wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human need ≠ human right. By definition, a limited resource cannot be a natural right. Rights aren’t natural, that’s a quasi-religious fiction invoked as a thought-terminating cliché to avoid debate over political ideology, and the bounds you state are simply the dogma of a particular political sect fond of the “natural rights” evasion. Human rights are a matter determined by the conscience of humans, and (while no…

> Human rights are a matter determined by the conscience of humans …and the laws of physics. If there is physically not enough water around to satisfy everyone's needs, then no amount of agitation about ‘rights’ will change that. A true universal right is not contingent on a particular material situation.

[deleted]

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#47

Post by lesuorac »

lordfrito wrote: post #37
xattt wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bottling water removes it from the local water cycle. If you are watering and showering, that water stays relatively local and ends up coming back into the local water system maintaining the local water table. If you are bottling water, you are effectively removing it from the local “water system” with no chance of it ever replenishing the source. Irrigation wells are not ideal either, and may be comparable in terms…

> If you are bottling water, you are effectively removing it from the local “water system” with no chance of it ever replenishing the source. Sounds like the perfect solution to sea level rise caused by melting glaciers. Just bottle it all up. I can see it now "Every bottle of water sold fights you dealing with climate change!" /s

I mean isn't it?

For all the ice on land that melts into the ocean raising the sea level, take an appropriate amount of seawater and freeze it back onto land.

That might be too difficult though; maybe instead we can replace all of the oil underground with water. It's all underneath us anyways so just leave the hole open and water will naturally pool down there.

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#48

Post by Georgelemental »

em-bee wrote: post #43
Georgelemental wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A human right is universal, something that applies to all times and all places, by virtue of the human's existence. People can try to take them away, but not grant them, because they are already granted by default. If you are marooned, alone, on a desert island, you still have a right to free expression, due process, etc. In contrast, limited resources require active effort to obtain, and even that might not be enoug…

i don't think that is relevant. human rights applies to the relationship between people. stuck on an island i can do all sorts of things, even illegal ones, because noone is there to stop me. so that's not really useful in determining my right to free expression or due process. both only work if there are others to listen or to charge me with a crime. however, if i am among other people then those people have the obl…

> However, if i am among other people then those people have the obligation to do everything in their power to keep me alive, because that is my human right.

How far do you take this? If you are dying of a disease, and the only way to prolong your life by one week is a medication that costs $2 trillion in resources to produce one dose, is society obligated to produce the medication to slightly delay your death? What if there is enough to satisfy only 50% of people, how does your ‘rights’-based framework decide who lives and who dies?

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#49

Post by Georgelemental »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #42
Georgelemental wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A human right is universal, something that applies to all times and all places, by virtue of the human's existence. People can try to take them away, but not grant them, because they are already granted by default. If you are marooned, alone, on a desert island, you still have a right to free expression, due process, etc. In contrast, limited resources require active effort to obtain, and even that might not be enoug…

This just seems like petty arguing over the definition of words. Which is resolved quite easily by pointing out that your definition is not the one used by most groups, in particular by the people at the UN who wrote those human rights declarations.

By confusing true universal rights with fake contingent ‘rights’ full of exceptions and caveats, you weaken the true rights. Naturally, authoritarian leaders and would-be despots at the UN and elsewhere are totally on board with this strategy.

Re: California orders bottled water firm to stop drawing from natural springs

#50

Post by em-bee »

Georgelemental wrote: post #48
em-bee wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't think that is relevant. human rights applies to the relationship between people. stuck on an island i can do all sorts of things, even illegal ones, because noone is there to stop me. so that's not really useful in determining my right to free expression or due process. both only work if there are others to listen or to charge me with a crime. however, if i am among other people then those people have the obl…

> However, if i am among other people then those people have the obligation to do everything in their power to keep me alive, because that is my human right. How far do you take this? If you are dying of a disease, and the only way to prolong your life by one week is a medication that costs $2 trillion in resources to produce one dose, is society obligated to produce the medication to slightly delay your death? What…

water is a resource that everyone needs, hence it needs to be shared. a specialized medication that not everyone needs is not the same thing.
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