Live data from Hacker News

Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

jacobin.com

281–290 of 327 posts

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#281

“Only women, children, and dogs are loved unconditionally” ~ Chris Rock Lots of yakking it up about how sad men are but it's all so disingenuous. My experience leads to me to believe that the moment a man asks for help is the moment he has lost the respect of his peers and, should he be so lucky, his female partner. Evolutionarily, men are disposable, and the workplaces and dating arenas we must inhabit reinforce it…

The most effective cure for felt disposability is indispensability. Such as: family life.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#282

Honestly, although I don't agree with everything the article says, it does have a very good point. Trump won in 2016 due to populism, on the belief that the American male was forgotten and left behind. As too, was rural America. The left could easily win election after election by coming out and saying "yeah, we've done a lot for women, for people of color, for sexual minorities, etc...but here's a bunch of things we…

> If you get out in front of the messaging, and control it, right wing shock-jock culture warriors have no ammo. The GOP has won lots of elections simply because their media messaging is on point, consistent as hell, and repetitive. I don't think those 2 points match up. You can get out in front of the messaging but you will not deprive right wing shock jock culture warriors of ammo. As you say, their messaging is co…

"I Heard It Before, So It Must Be True."

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a…

When all the men got together and voted for women to also have the vote, that was toxic masculinity at work. (this is a joke, but also not really. Women shifting the political map towards larger government and more socialism seems to be the root of most of our current problems. It's kind of a big problem because women should very clearly be allowed to vote but at the same time I don't know how to reconcile that with…

> When all the men got together and voted for women to also have the vote, that was toxic masculinity at work. (this is a joke, but also not really. Women shifting the political map towards larger government and more socialism seems to be the root of most of our current problems.

This seems like a really flawed and backwards take. What evidence do you have that supports your incredibly vague statement that women’s ability to vote is “the root of most of our current problems.”

The American socialist movement began in the early 19th century and peaked in the early 20th. 1900-1920 saw the height of socialist sentiment in the US. The Socialist Party of America began to lose it’s influence in the 1920’s as socialism began to decline in popularity. Women gained the right to vote in 1920.

Would that not then indicate that women gaining the right to vote led to a decline in socialist sentiment? Saying this is just as disingenuous as saying that women gaining the right to vote massively shifted the political spectrum towards socialism.

A rise in socialism is historically very often a reaction to some sort of societal upheaval (i.e. war, economic crises, high levels of inequality, exploitation, etc).

Forgive me if I’m wrong in assuming that you’re speaking about the US, but my point stands regardless of what country you’re referring to because blaming a century’s worth of problems on women gaining the right to vote (regardless of the country) is not a serious nor intelligent argument.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a…

When all the men got together and voted for women to also have the vote, that was toxic masculinity at work. (this is a joke, but also not really. Women shifting the political map towards larger government and more socialism seems to be the root of most of our current problems. It's kind of a big problem because women should very clearly be allowed to vote but at the same time I don't know how to reconcile that with…

I think you've got the "this is a joke" bit referencing the wrong part of your post.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's why I am hard right now. I'm tired of being gaslighted and demonized. I grew up in Europe and was ultra liberal most of my youth.

> It's why I am hard right now. Sentence structure man, sentence structure!

Jokes man, jokes

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#287

“Only women, children, and dogs are loved unconditionally” ~ Chris Rock Lots of yakking it up about how sad men are but it's all so disingenuous. My experience leads to me to believe that the moment a man asks for help is the moment he has lost the respect of his peers and, should he be so lucky, his female partner. Evolutionarily, men are disposable, and the workplaces and dating arenas we must inhabit reinforce it…

> they care far more about what you could provide than how you feel. This is real, it does happen. But for the sake of anyone reading this, please be aware. There are plenty of women who are not like this . Finding them can feel overwhelming, but when you land the right one, it makes life so much better . I'm kidding, but only slightly, when I say this: I think the best advice for young men is to skip the dating scen…

Terrible advice, that's gets men fleeced and suicidal

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Wage stagnation, gender roles which become increasingly impossible to meet in the modern world, the price of property, commuter town hell, social alienation, lack of third places, even toxic masculinity, all of these are conversations about things that hurt men. And with gender roles expected of men, to be economically successful, to look a certain way and wear certain things and have certain kinds of jobs and…

> Maybe don't stick your head in the sand the moment someone says "toxic masculinity". It means something which hurts men, too. The left however tends to shun the fact that a lot of the toxic masculinity comes from women and their expectations on men and boys. There isn't anything men can do to stop toxic masculinity until women stops propagating it, and the left sees no problem with women and teachers propagating to…

This comment seems right on. Women calling men under 6ft children on social media. Lesbians shaming men for being short or weaker than them.

Of course the gate is rising

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#289

Richard Reeves is originally from the left, and there is a podcast interview of him by Ezra Klein (titled "the boys are not alright"). In the interview he describes how he was drawn to feminism and looking at gender inequality, and by looking at the data became convinced that boys and men were a neglected cause. He was then frustrated as other researchers and policy people had no interest in that form of inequality.…

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a…

Extreme "pranks"? Hazing culture? Omerta? Gang culture? Wolf of Wall Street / Boiler Room culture?The thin blue line? Church scandals? Basically every domestic terrorist group in history?

Four common patterns

* Recruitment techniques based around achieving worth by emulating some "alpha" male, usually physical and financial, sometimes spiritual

* Approval associated with risk taking behavior. Binge drinking, criminal activity, extrajudicial punishment, etc

* Complicity through witness and increasing levels of participation

And especially

* Code of silence

A heinous fifth pattern is commingling this behavior with family / work culture, creating tension between "the code" and actual codes and relationships.

Ultimately these systems let sociopaths, narcissists, and other mentally unwell men to flourish and prosper precisely because they can easily adhere to these artificial "codes" and power structures vs traditional ones.

Edit: at the risk of coming across of overanalyzing, asking your son to help with the oil potentially contributes to this behavior. You as a male he looks up to is "recruiting" him to do something he has no interest in doing otherwise.

In a vacuum it's benign of course and not toxic but some awareness of the power dynamics and making sure your son knows the difference between a "good" ask and a "bad" ask and how to say no is important.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#290
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is not toxic masculinity. Is toxic humanity.

Why is everyone in this thread falling over themselves and starting every response with "as a liberal" or something similar? People are so afraid of talking openly about how insane the left has become that they don't see how their very responses are indicative of how the left will try to harm them in some way e.g. "how insane the left has become". Sure 20 years ago the sides were reversed but now the hypocrisy is mos…

It looks like you only interact with NY to badmouth about left.
Post reply on HN