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Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

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Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#271

Post by badlucklottery »

mwbajor wrote: post #207
LeroyRaz wrote: post #184

Richard Reeves is originally from the left, and there is a podcast interview of him by Ezra Klein (titled "the boys are not alright"). In the interview he describes how he was drawn to feminism and looking at gender inequality, and by looking at the data became convinced that boys and men were a neglected cause. He was then frustrated as other researchers and policy people had no interest in that form of inequality.…

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a…

> Can we have an example of toxic masculinity?

A good example is if you your son is allowed help change the oil but you don't allow your daughter or wife to help because it's "man's work".

Or if you force your son to help because it's expect of him as a man.

But, if little dude is curious/eager and wants to hold the flashlight and maybe turn a wrench, go for it.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#272

Post by cutemonster »

jmye wrote: post #270
snapplebobapple wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just the crass version of the actually good advice that goes as follows: Don't react to your emotions, instead notice your emotions wash over you, identify the why and respond rationally instead of emotionally to the why. It's basically good advice given in the worst possible way with deceptive context

Why is that good advice? If my father dies, why is it bad to be sad about it? Why is it wrong to cry when I’m sad? I think you’re completely off base in trying to make “respond rationally and with no emotion, ever” a universal rule, especially with regards to interacting with other people. It’s weird and robotic.

Or if a kid falls and hurts their arm. (Instead of shaming them, a hug is an alternative)

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#273

Post by jdthedisciple »

tw04 wrote: post #263
asking4fren wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Honestly, it sounds like you need some new friends and to stop listening to Jordan Peterson. And what about those who experience this effect, and have always actively avoided Peterson and his ilk? When you find out rumours are spreading about you after you've opened up, you can separate yourself from that community, but where does that leave a person? What do you think happens when someone tries to join a new commun…

I assume from the "rumors are spreading" you're talking about a high school situation - in which case that'll stop pretty quickly when you get to college (or full time work), so just tough it out. If you're a grown adult and have rumors following you around, just find a new friends group. If your town is so small that you can't escape that, seriously just move? If it's a job and the culture is gossip, it's probably t…

I agree with "tough it up" to a large degree.

However, the funny thing about people like you is

you would never say "though it up" to a woman

yet you would claim "women and men are equal"

disingenuous

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#274

Post by cutemonster »

foogazi wrote: post #233
Tommstein wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can we forget this classic: "Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat." - Hillary Clinton Men: not even the primary victims of their own gruesome battlefield deaths.

I get the point you are trying to make but who fights the wars ?

What's the point you're making?

I guess if a country invades another, you're saying that the men in the invading force have themselves to blame? Although sometimes they're threatened and forced, get shot if refusing.

But there's also the ones defending their own people. They didn't start any war

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#275

Post by LeroyRaz »

BossHogg wrote: post #259
LeroyRaz wrote: post #184

Richard Reeves is originally from the left, and there is a podcast interview of him by Ezra Klein (titled "the boys are not alright"). In the interview he describes how he was drawn to feminism and looking at gender inequality, and by looking at the data became convinced that boys and men were a neglected cause. He was then frustrated as other researchers and policy people had no interest in that form of inequality.…

> longer jail for the same crime, higher rates of homelessness, higher rates of suicide, lower educational outcomes, shorter life spans, less friends on average, ... And outcomes are worse for Black men in almost all categories and have been so for some time. Yet the response to negative outcomes for Black people is to blame "black culture." Yet there's no blaming of white culture. Instead this is a crisis we have to…

Richard Reeves would agree that black men and boys are disadvantaged (with outcomes significantly worse than black girls say). In the interview with Ezra Klein he focuses quite bit on this disenfranchisement, and says how the political right neglects disadvantages that uniquely impact race, and the political left neglects disadvantages to men, and the end result is that neither care about the plight of black men.

That both parties neglect the cause of black men is (in my opinion) an outcome of a two party system that is so divisive that it leaves no space for nuance (and poor policies and extra needless human misery is the result).

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#276

Post by hosh »

em-bee wrote: post #238
hosh wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see it as nitpicking so much as fundamental flaws with this approach. We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.

there is maybe one more aspect here: i see "overpowering" as a metaphor not meant to be taken literally. i mean how would that even work? i see only one way to get rid of a competitive mindset: to teach children to be cooperative. the "overpowering" aspect would simply be that more people do that than people who teach their children to be competitive, and that women convince their husbands that teaching children to b…

I see even a metaphor of “overpowering”, “strength in numbers” as deeply problematic because it is indicative of paradigm and world view. This goes beyond signaling and messaging. It’s difficult to be aware of one’s own paradigm, let alone to change it.

It’s not as if I have a good solution to this. If I did, I would be writing about it.

So far, the person who seems to be able to articulate and implement this I have seen is Carol Sanford.

She does not talk about overpowering, or strength in numbers.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#277

Post by hosh »

deaddodo wrote: post #68
hosh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, can you give examples? I hear this issue pretty loudly from the right, but not really much from the left. I know ordinary people talk about this issue, but it isn't the same as people in positions of power or influence.

They're referencing the common "toxic masculinity" talking points. I, personally, have always seen that more as displacing/blaming versus addressing legitimate issues. A common example would be the topic of male suicide, which is usually addressed as either "well, women try to kill themselves more often and that's totally not an indicator of attention seeking behavior versus genuine depression and fatigue with life"…

I have a book on toxic masculinity on my shelf, and it is written as a deep exploration of psychology, archetypes, etc.

The usual rhetoric I hear about toxic masculinity is very far away from the contents of that book. It is really easy to use that phrase in an aggressive way. Though, interestingly enough, Pixar’s Buzz Lightyear movie was written by someone who has thoroughly studied this. By that token, so can the contrast between Iron Man and Captain America in the MCU.

Ironically enough, some of the very problems brought up by the right can be understood in an insightful way with this lens.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#278

Post by euroderf »

conception wrote: post #244
mwbajor wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a…

Also, that is not something a sane person would say, no. Having children help with chores is a key part of parenting, regardless of gender.

Furthermore, when children help with chores without expectation of immediate commensurate reward, it cultivates positive values.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#279

Post by euroderf »

snapplebobapple wrote: post #266
mwbajor wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we have an example of toxic masculinity? I've never once received a real definition in a debate like this and when I'm close to it, the other side tries to make it sound like they are sympathetic to toxic masculinity. For example, I've had it told to me that I shouldnt have my son help me with changing my car's oil because thats putting some sort of burden on him at an early age. Does this sound like something a…

When all the men got together and voted for women to also have the vote, that was toxic masculinity at work. (this is a joke, but also not really. Women shifting the political map towards larger government and more socialism seems to be the root of most of our current problems. It's kind of a big problem because women should very clearly be allowed to vote but at the same time I don't know how to reconcile that with…

This begs the question, what do you consider to be socialism ?

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#280

Post by euroderf »

LeroyRaz wrote: post #275
BossHogg wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> longer jail for the same crime, higher rates of homelessness, higher rates of suicide, lower educational outcomes, shorter life spans, less friends on average, ... And outcomes are worse for Black men in almost all categories and have been so for some time. Yet the response to negative outcomes for Black people is to blame "black culture." Yet there's no blaming of white culture. Instead this is a crisis we have to…

Richard Reeves would agree that black men and boys are disadvantaged (with outcomes significantly worse than black girls say). In the interview with Ezra Klein he focuses quite bit on this disenfranchisement, and says how the political right neglects disadvantages that uniquely impact race, and the political left neglects disadvantages to men, and the end result is that neither care about the plight of black men. Tha…

True voting reform (e.g. STV) would percolate thru the system in myriad ways.
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