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A basic guide to using Asian names

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Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#201

Post by rigrassm »

earthboundkid wrote: post #194
javier_e06 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the "death by thousand cuts that people with foreign names experience in the US" It reminds me of the meme that reads: "You speak English because is the only language you know. I speak English because is the only language you know. We are not the same". Why Starubucks insist on asking for my name just to mangle it in the cup for posterity?

My name is a totally bog standard American name and Starbucks or whoever cannot get it right if I just say it. I have internalized this now so I always say my name followed by spelling it (fortunately, it's very short). I think it's an important bit of context that even if your name is something like "Karen" or whatever, they will mishear it and misspell it as "Cathrine". It's not a unique microaggression imposed on…

Seconding this experience.

My first name is "Ricky" and I very frequently have to correct people (mainly in drive throughs and over the phone) who repeat back to me "Britney" or "Nicky".

Very possible I just suck at enunciating my name and no one has had the heart to tell me all these years.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#202

Post by lazyasciiart »

crossroadsguy wrote: post #121
lazyasciiart wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend, in America, is named Alok. When he started school the teacher said “That’s not a name, in my class your name is Alex.” You know that not everyone is relating to you with good intentions, right? And that their convenience isn’t the most important thing in the world? How far does your magnanimity extend? Can people just say “hey you, shithead” and you think that shouldn’t affect the interaction?

It was horrible of that teacher if it was not just an icebreaker sort of light-hearted remark. Though I might find it inappropriate nonetheless. Did Alok protest?

It was not an icebreaker, it was a racist asshole who was absolutely serious - he wasn't going to say some shitty foreign name, and he didn't, all year. As a 5yo? No, he did not protest. It wasn't an isolated incident anyway.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#203

Post by numpad0 »

paulddraper wrote: post #172
madmax96 wrote: post #147

The whole situation is really confusing. Some people already ``adjust'' their names for a Western audience, and others don't. So, given the of a Japanese person, I don't know if is the family name or given name. Some people already make the adjustment so that Westerners get it right, some don't. I don't care either way -- I'd just prefer things be consistent so that when I recognize a Japanese name I can call them by…

FWIW, family name is almost one syllable (Li, Yang, Wu, etc.) Though that only helps a little because loads of given names are also one syllable. Fun Fact: 300,000 people have the name "Zhang Wei" [1] [1] https://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-01/20/c_138721082.htm

Modern Chinese family names are often one syllable, but China and Japan do not share language nor have much ancestral connections, and Japanese family names are usually not one syllable.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#204

Post by numpad0 »

tkgally wrote: post #44
glandium wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: the Japanese government insists that foreigners use the name they have in their passport in official documents. That includes the middle name. My middle name has thus crept in all over the place. I've barely ever used it in my home country, but now have to use it everywhere (I live in Japan). Anyways, more relevant to OP, as a result, sometimes I'm called by my middle name, as if it were my last name (becau…

I also live in Japan, and I have exactly the same problem. I think the people with the biggest name problems in Japan may be ethnic Chinese. Many use the Japanese readings for their name characters in daily life, but some official purposes require the Chinese readings. Some Chinese also use yet another given name in English. I've had some friends who ran into serious problems proving they were who they were. Addendum…

I had never realized how complicated it gets if two isolate languages just shared the script and some vocabulary, but independently developed syntax and pronunciation, until I took an introductory Chinese course. They insist "Akihabara" is obviously pronounced "chew-yeah, y'wan?(qiū yè yuán)", which hardly register as 3 letter noun to my ears.

And therefore, from your example, Japanese reading against Chinese reading, Chinese name in Japanese font, American name used for English against everything else, none of that is not just do not cross-validate but also seem somewhat fraudulent because everyone has some ideas about each of those strings.

(which, by the way, explains why made-up transliteration is fine; so long you're consistently a Linus Torvalds going by a close enough Ri-nasu To-baruzu, and no other versions exist, and it traces back to your passport, it cross validates as a coherent enough identity)

And Chinese names would be like "Ms. 3Jane Tessier-Ashpool" that seem to read "Saint-John Thomas Haywood" who's going by just "Junko Mary", nope, that isn't going to work on any official forms. I can only imagine how complicated it will be for them.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#205

Post by crossroadsguy »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #202
crossroadsguy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was horrible of that teacher if it was not just an icebreaker sort of light-hearted remark. Though I might find it inappropriate nonetheless. Did Alok protest?

It was not an icebreaker, it was a racist asshole who was absolutely serious - he wasn't going to say some shitty foreign name, and he didn't, all year. As a 5yo? No, he did not protest. It wasn't an isolated incident anyway.

Oh. I didn’t take the “teacher” part seriously. I assumed it to he a professor. My bad.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#206

Post by cat_plus_plus »

michaelt wrote: post #128
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #66

For whatever reason, my first name is almost universally mispronounced in America. So early on, I made a decision to let it go and in fact introduce myself by how most English speakers said it. No regrets whatsoever, any time spent sorting phonetics out is time wasted not getting to substance of the matter we want to discuss. I also suspect that if I made a stink about it, many people would avoid me because I have a…

> So I don't get the current trend where everyone is your majesty and god forbid someone mangles your name The advice that people react well if you pronounce their name correctly has been widespread since, at the very least, Dale Carnegie's 1936 "How to Win Friends and Influence People" so not really a recent trend. And of course in some situations other people's treatment of your name can have a major impact on your…

Dale Carnegie's book is about professional success. OBVIOUSLY, if you are having a meeting with a VP about your project, it might be good to make sure you say his or her name correctly. Equally obviously, if a VP mispronounces your name, you don't make a stink and derail business side of conversation.

If we are just talking about being nice well... exactly same considerations apply. Why burden other people when you can handle the problem yourself. At least for one off interactions, if you deal with someone regularly it's Ok to mention correct pronunciation a couple of times and not make it a huge deal if they find it challenging.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#207

Post by rovolo »

sbehere wrote: post #185
kortex wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tldr yes. Not a Hindustani speaker but general linguistics nerd. No idea if HN can handle the IPA modifiers - त - /t̪ə/ - voiceless dental plosive - थ - /t̪ʰə/ - aspirated voiceless dental plosive - ट - /ʈə/ - Voiceless retroflex plosive - ठ - /ʈʰə/ - aspirated Voiceless retroflex plosive t̪ - t with square bracket below is the dental plosive ʰ - superscript h is the aspirations indicator So there are three issues fo…

This is fascinating. Thank you for commenting. As an Indian living in the West, I have always wondered why/how certain differences that are stark to my ears are subtle or barely perceptible to others. The converse is also true. For example, the way native Swedish speakers pronounce seven (sju - example pronunciations at https://forvo.com/word/sju/ ) is 1) Hard for me to say and 2) No matter how I say it, the response…

> Isn't 'th' just the aspirated version of 't'?

'th' is only an aspirated 't' for loan words in English. Most English words pronounce 'th' as the fricatives /θ/ or /ð/.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th_(digraph)

"Thyme" is odd because it used to be spelled "tyme" in Middle English (1066-1400s). I assume it was changed to 'th' to be more similar to Latin and French. Something similar happened to "island" (iland) and "isle" (ile) where a silent 's' was added to make the words closer to the Latin "insula".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/thyme

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/isle

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#208

Post by seoulbigchris »

FalconSensei wrote: post #135
monknomo wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a european name that is difficult to pronounce for americans (even me!), and I adopted the same approach. It's mildly annoying, because my name as pronounced by americans has a lot of connotations I don't necessarily love, but I know who folks mean coffee shops are impossible though. I have a coffee shop name, because they are even more wildly out of pocket with what they hear my name is than the median conver…

As a Brazilian living in Canada, a coffee shop name is a must have. I tried using my name, but then Ill have to spell it. And then they are going to mispronounce it when reading it, so I'm not gonna know it's me they are calling.

One time at a deli sandwich type of store, the way the clerk phrased the question caught my attention: “What name would you like us to call when your order is ready?” She didn’t ask for my name, rather what name should they call out. My kids were embarrassed when I replied “Harvey” (that’s not my name). About ten minutes later some friends walk into the place, see me, and come over to say hello. Just then, the clerk shouted “Harvey, your order is ready”. My friends were really baffled when I stood up and went to fetch it.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#209

Post by musicale »

monknomo wrote: post #131
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #66

For whatever reason, my first name is almost universally mispronounced in America. So early on, I made a decision to let it go and in fact introduce myself by how most English speakers said it. No regrets whatsoever, any time spent sorting phonetics out is time wasted not getting to substance of the matter we want to discuss. I also suspect that if I made a stink about it, many people would avoid me because I have a…

I have a european name that is difficult to pronounce for americans (even me!), and I adopted the same approach. It's mildly annoying, because my name as pronounced by americans has a lot of connotations I don't necessarily love, but I know who folks mean coffee shops are impossible though. I have a coffee shop name, because they are even more wildly out of pocket with what they hear my name is than the median conver…

Other coffee shops may be quieter, but I expect Starbucks workers might develop hearing damage from the blenders etc.

Re: A basic guide to using Asian names

#210

Post by musicale »

bitwize wrote: post #86
tkgally wrote: post #6

The guidance on Japanese names is a bit simplistic. Yes, the Japanese government has announced a surname-first policy, but Japanese people are not bound by that policy. I have hundreds of name cards ( meishi ) that I have received from Japanese businesspeople, academics, and government officials over the years, and my rough estimate is that more than half who indicated their name in English on the card put their surn…

Japanese people sometimes use the French-like convention of capitalizing the family name (e.g., "Hayao MIYAZAKI", not that he actually does this) so you can tell which is which without knowing a priori what order the named person prefers to write their name in English.

This seems like a very clear approach, as long as it doesn't come across as shouting.
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