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Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

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Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#211

Post by sershe »

acdha wrote: post #180
sershe wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The litmus test is whether the issues are being treated like an (apocryphal?) Medieval witch test, where you are a witch regardless of the outcome. For example, the fact that males disproportionately commit suicide is blamed on toxic masculinity - lack of vulnerability, cultural self esteem issues or whatever. Ok, fair enough; now the counterfactual is, what if females disproportionately committed suicide? It's prett…

Do you have any real examples? As written, it sounds like you’re criticizing non-specific hypothetical leftists for doing something hypocritical which doesn’t seem likely to lead anywhere productive without identifying who you’re talking about or providing examples of real things they said.

I provided a real example of an issue where men do worse being diagnosed on the left as a problem with men. I don't think I need to provide examples of issues where women do worse and it's diagnosed on the left as a problem with men.

I argue that's the whole of the left discourse.. any new issues would be handled similarly regardless of the outcomes to be discussed. Can you provide any issues as counter-examples?

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#212

Post by acdha »

sershe wrote: post #211
acdha wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any real examples? As written, it sounds like you’re criticizing non-specific hypothetical leftists for doing something hypocritical which doesn’t seem likely to lead anywhere productive without identifying who you’re talking about or providing examples of real things they said.

I provided a real example of an issue where men do worse being diagnosed on the left as a problem with men. I don't think I need to provide examples of issues where women do worse and it's diagnosed on the left as a problem with men. I argue that's the whole of the left discourse.. any new issues would be handled similarly regardless of the outcomes to be discussed. Can you provide any issues as counter-examples?

You mentioned an issue (suicide) but simply asserted how it would be treated. You didn’t mention a single real person taking a position on the issue, establish that they were broadly representative of a group, or even establish which group you’re talking about (i.e. are you using “left” in the Fox News sense, general mainstream American sense, or European sense? Those are very different.)

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#213

Post by diogenes4 »

WatchDog wrote: post #129
diogenes4 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mike Rowe is a blatant shill for anti-labor practices and it's clear even in this clip.

You probably just disagree with him about what constitutes anti-labor practices. I can't think of many other public figures that have spent as much time as him, advocating for blue collar work.

> I can't think of many other public figures that have spent as much time as him, advocating for blue collar work.

The trick is not advocating for the work but the worker. Employment, without fail, sucks ass.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#214

Post by diogenes4 »

_ache_ wrote: post #24
diogenes4 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In part, this is because he wants men to become more like women, a project that will never appeal to ordinary guys. Is it just me or does this reduce to the idea that ordinary men are stupid? Not on board with that at all.

I don't think so. It's in line with the classical definition of masculinity. What is not feminine. So nothing shocks me with that sentence.

> It's in line with the classical definition of masculinity. What is not feminine.

This is not only a very western perspective but a very modern one. Regardless, the principles of liberating people from gender roles applies just as well to a gender role applied only to men.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#215

Post by diogenes4 »

lesuorac wrote: post #13
diogenes4 wrote: post #3

The left does talk about it. Ridiculous article from jacobin.

I mean, his point is that the Left doesn't actually drive home all the things they do that benefit men. > You have an infrastructure bill that will create jobs largely for men. Two-thirds of the jobs in the infrastructure bill will go to men: black men as much as white men, and Hispanic men a little bit more, because they’re so represented in the construction industry. Don’t hide from that fact, as the administration…

First, the infrastructure bill came out of the center, not the left (although it is fairly popular across the entire spectrum). Second, I don't see many people expounding the individual benefit from the infrastructure bill period—seems like a blatant strawman.

> Two-thirds of the jobs in the infrastructure bill will go to men: black men as much as white men, and Hispanic men a little bit more, because they’re so represented in the construction industry.

If I perceived the government as only capable of offering jobs and no other support I would also be pissed and feel alienated. I don't see much evidence that this is how people view the world outside of the Brookings institute.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#216

Post by em-bee »

hosh wrote: post #141
em-bee wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the competitive mindset pits every individual against every other individual. this is different from a group of people combining their forces to push out an unwanted trait.

Characterizing competition as exclusively individualistic is I think, a very limiting and overly simplistic way to see this. There is such a thing as collectives and institutions being competitive. Both cooperation and competition is part of the human psyche, and there is a place for competition as well (such as the refinement of personal character and development of capabilities). More problematically are such thing…

i agree, but that was not my point. this subthread started with a nitpick that overpowering competitive values would be self sabotaging as it would be employing the very thing it tries to get rid of.

competition is if course not exclusively individualistic. but overpowering competitive values in my mind needs to mainly happen on the individual level. that is, individuals need to learn to be cooperative. there is still room for healthy competition, like in sports and what not, but only if competition is not permeating through every level of society can we benefit from cooperation to build greater things.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#217

Post by matt003 »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #82
mellosouls wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming way the left talks about it is in terms of "toxic" masculinity or through the perspective of feminism. The latter is a valid perspective, but dominates the discourse which is hardly a balanced approach.

My problem besides pure misandrists hiding behind feminism is the quasi-marxist idea that men are a separate species that exploits women. As opposed to the reality that ordinary men are exploited as much but different. In particular you see pointless bashing of young men. Who are actually at the very bottom of the patriarcal order, completely disposable and a seen mostly as fodder. So punching at young men is actuall…

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Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#218

Post by diogenes4 »

akira2501 wrote: post #54
diogenes4 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mike Rowe is a blatant shill for anti-labor practices and it's clear even in this clip.

I'm sorry.. what's "anti-labor" about this video?

Well, pitching "dirty jobs" as a solution to the decline in gender roles seems like a shallow effort to get people to accept shitty jobs as some sort of performative masculinity. I can't think of any other reason to do this—I don't know many men who long for dirtier jobs so they're seen as more manly. In fact I'm confident I've never met anyone who felt this way.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#219

Post by FireBeyond »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #194
FireBeyond wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In April 2021, when asked about the debate about raising the minimum wage, Rowe said, "I worry that the path to a skilled trade can be compromised when you offer an artificially high wage for, I hate the expression, but an unskilled job." Very much an advocate for the working man, there.

There's more to that quote if you click through to the source. Before it was this: “I want everybody who works hard and plays fair to prosper," Rowe said. "I want everybody to be able to support themselves. But if you just pull the money out of midair you're going to create other problems.” “There is a ladder of success that people climb,” he continued. “Some of those jobs that are out there for seven, eight, nine do…

Given that the minimum wage was last raised in 2009, and even until then was always raised in arrears, I'd argue more that it's irresponsible of business owners to not be saving for an expected increase at some point in the near future (hopefully). It's not "pulling money out of midair" - these employers have been able to effectively "underpay" employees since then.

> Some of those jobs that are out there for seven, eight, nine dollars an hour, in my view, they're simply not intended to be careers. They're not intended to be full-time jobs.

This is a huge conservative talking point - the federal minimum wage was intended to be a liveable wage, not "for teenagers/high schoolers/part timers" - this whole spin of "these jobs are not meant to be liveable" is a wholly after-the-fact revisionism.

Re: Boys and Men in the United States Are Struggling. The Left Should Talk About It

#220

Post by orwin »

mortureb wrote: post #174
quantified wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But overall, young men hit the labor market or college or whatever less well-prepared as a result of the education system. No facts about it, just some random assertion. Schools aren't going to change the way males relate to playing games, sports, and farting around in general compared with actually studying. What other part of the article did I miss? Oh, this: > the education system isn’t doing very well by lots o…

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No fault divorces are absolutely necessary. If the judges disproportionately favor the woman instead of the man, it's a issue with the justice system, not the law.

My great grandmother, Marie-Madeleine, and her sister Mercedes were both married/promised to their older cousins (2nd degree, so quite close) to make sure the family business stayed in the family (no brothers, only 3 sisters). My great-grandmother probably poisoned her husband shortly after their 2 children, making him unable to carry loads, and that killed him in 39/40 while he was forced to go work in Germany, and Mercedes was known in the village to prostitute herself during the war and tell everyone how her husband was unsatisfying. I think their parents didn't dare to push the 3rd sister (I know her name starts with 'M' too but I'm unable to remember), because she was the hard-headed one.

I'd rather be divorced than poisoned, tbh.

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