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U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

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Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#221

Post by Symbiote »

orwin wrote: post #218
Symbiote wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, it's not allowed for a third-country institution to lead part of an EU project. They can collaborate on specific tasks. The UK joining now means a group at Manchester University can lead the work on health outcomes, not just be a part of it under someone else.

Thank you very much for this explanation, I was confused by TFA (I skimmed through it, its my fault). Like I thought then, it's not a brexit thing at all.

It is a result of Brexit, as leading part (or all) of a Horizon project is a significant goal of many scientists' careers, and usually brings in much more funding than doing the smaller parts.

Britain lost that opportunity for several years, which will have caused people and groups to move to the EU.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#222

Post by kergonath »

gadders wrote: post #124
swores wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy isn't a magical word that automatically makes every decision made democratically good, nor does it stop being democracy if people are lied to and tricked into voting against their own interests.

You could say that about any election, ever. The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election.

To be fair, some people ought to be jailed for this sort of blatant lies. It was not dodgy interpretation of facts or anything like that. It was pure disinformation. The fact that some other elections are also bad is beside the point. Democracy depends on people being well informed and engaged. Disinformation and disenfranchisement are crimes against democracy.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#223

Post by kergonath »

gadders wrote: post #149
bemusedthrow75 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Brexit Referendum was no more or less honest than any general election. Sorry , no. It was profoundly* dishonest. I have a leaflet that was dropped through my door talking about Turkey joining the EU as if it was something imminent and guaranteed (it is neither). It featured a map that prominently suggested this was a gateway to all things nefarious by showing Turkey as a coloured region without a label, surrou…

"Turkey is negotiating its accession to the European Union (EU) as a member state, following its application to become a full member of the European Economic Community (EEC), the predecessor of the EU, on 14 April 1987.[1]" It's officially classed as a candidate. That doesn't seem consistent with "Never joining" unless the EU knowingly lied to Turkey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...

I got in my mail box flyers warning about Syria ending up in the Schengen free movement area. It was not just some creative interpretation of facts about Turkey. Who had at the time (and still now) no prospects of finishing the integration process short of getting rid of Erdogan anyway. And that the UK could have basically vetoed anyway.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#224

Post by kergonath »

a_humean wrote: post #179
gadders wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you agree the EU lied to Turkey then?

No, and Yes and No. No because there is nothing wrong with the EU telling Turkey these are the entry standards for membership. Turkey didn't meet those standards and were backsliding on lots of issues esp around human rights and political/media freedom. It also had unreasolved territorial issues with other member states namely Greece which completely block ascension. Yes and No because the politics of this are comple…

> If you want to cut to the chase then yes the EU kinda sorta lied to Turkey because its officals know these facts, but Turkey's officals themselves are in on it for their own internal politics which I won't get into in part because I know much less about it.

An important missing piece is that not that long ago, when it officially became candidate, Turkey was seen as a secular, progressive state in the Middle East. Its recent backsliding into autocratic medieval theocracy pretty much ended the idea that Turkey would join without serious changes in government policy and constitution.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#225

Post by toyg »

tgv wrote: post #164
toyg wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free trade without substantial political union is useless. Look at the Commonwealth for an example: broken, decaying, unpopular, a walking zombie of an institution.

The Commonwealth has a rather different history; I don't think it is a good analogy for the EU. Substantial political union isn't required per se, just enough common interest. That at least was the original thought behind the predecessor of the EU, and it seems to have worked through sharing economic interests.

The common economic interest was always seen as the best key to persuade countries to eventually federate. Read the arguments from early leaders of the ECSC and it's all very plain. The vision was always to reach a full political union, through the lever of an economic union that is necessary to remain competitive with the US and (the USSR back then, but today) China. Because in a superpower world, European countries alone are utterly irrelevant.

You can take any trade bloc out there - none has the influence or the prospects of the EU, they are all fundamentally weak. You need shared political force to make a difference.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#226

Post by xfz »

tomatocracy wrote: post #217
Symbiote wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, EU residents no longer even have the right through their residence to visit the UK. That makes organizing collaboration with Britain more complicated if you have a PhD student from Iran in the group, or a postdoc from China.

Unless I missed something at the time, EU residents (not residing in the UK) who were not EU citizens never had an automatic right of entry to or right to remain in the UK by virtue of EU residency (with some very narrow exceptions like accompanying an EU citizen spouse - though the UK made exercising this right very difficult in practice so that it was usually easier just to apply for a visa).

Much as I thoroughly oppose Brexit it's worth pointing out that other EU countries also made excersing the right to travel with a spouse difficult.

Before Brexit I gave up trying to take my wife on a couple of business trips in the EU as they were too short notice to arrange the supposedly free visa, which in theory shouldn't have been even needed but definitely was in practice.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#227

Post by ffgjgf1 »

simonh wrote: post #194
swores wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy isn't a magical word that automatically makes every decision made democratically good, nor does it stop being democracy if people are lied to and tricked into voting against their own interests.

Remainer here, but we lost fair and square. Politicians and campaigners definitely have a responsibility to be honest, but equally the electorate have a responsibility to inform themselves and make a reasonable judgement on the arguments made to them. Correcting for mistakes is what new elections are for.

> elections are for.

Making an effectively irreversible decision after single vote won with a slim majority seems like not the brightest idea.

They should’ve had a referendum to approve the negotiated deal and if that failed started the entire process all over.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#228

Post by ffgjgf1 »

gadders wrote: post #172
a_humean wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be ignorant on this topic or a liar to say that Turkey is going to join the EU for the foreseeable future. I accept that you might be ignorant (no shame in that), but the people that created that campaign material were lying because they did know better. Even back in 2015 it was pretty clear that Turkey was probably never going to join the EU - at least a generation off if ever. They have nominally been t…

So you agree the EU lied to Turkey then?

Not at the time. The situation changed, though.

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#229

Post by ffgjgf1 »

gadders wrote: post #148
mcintyre1994 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that it was less honest on the basis that the Leave side didn't have the equivalent of a general election manifesto. Cameron had his negotiated deal and Remain was continuity his government. But Leave didn't present any concrete document of what they wanted to happen next if we left, and if they had created such a document the referendum wouldn't have given them the power to put their plan into practice. Th…

I take your point - it wasn't like Labour was Remain, and Conservatives were Leave - in reality all major parties and much of the establishment was remain. But I'm not sure that's dishonesty in that people were deliberately saying things that were not true - people were instead saying "These are the things made possible if we leave the EU and you vote for a party that wants this in a general election."

> wasn't like Labour was Remain, and Conservatives were Leave

I wouldn’t even say that Labour’s top leadership was really pro-remain at the time. Cameron was at least being honest (in this instance).

Re: U.K. rejoins Horizon Europe research funding scheme

#230

Post by Symbiote »

tomatocracy wrote: post #217
Symbiote wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, EU residents no longer even have the right through their residence to visit the UK. That makes organizing collaboration with Britain more complicated if you have a PhD student from Iran in the group, or a postdoc from China.

Unless I missed something at the time, EU residents (not residing in the UK) who were not EU citizens never had an automatic right of entry to or right to remain in the UK by virtue of EU residency (with some very narrow exceptions like accompanying an EU citizen spouse - though the UK made exercising this right very difficult in practice so that it was usually easier just to apply for a visa).

You may well be correct.

Nothing to do with science, but one exception is school children. It used to be easy for a class of children from France to visit the UK with a special group passport for school/youth groups, which could include the Syrian refugee child etc. That's no longer possible, so these trips (to help learn English) now mostly go to Ireland.

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