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German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

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Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#21

Post by eru »

hef19898 wrote: post #11
jellicle wrote: post #8

For the political hackers: note that these victories are made possible by Germany's proportional representation system, which guarantees seats in parliaments to any party which gets more than 5% of the popular vote across the state/city/whatever. Thus parties with broad but shallow support do get represented in government. The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post…

Which electoral system is better is another discussion. Both have their flaws, but a pretty good discription of how elections work in Germany.

The Economist had a nice line: "Germany is a country that only works in practice."

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#22

Post by jellicle »

phreeza wrote: post #14
LinaLauneBaer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several press releases about ACTA on piratenpartei.de: http://www.piratenpartei.de/category/pm/

The point is not to just write a press release, it is to get your platform noticed. They missed this opportunity with ACTA and also when our president resigned. Fefe ranted about this in several posts on his blog. My hunch is they simply lack the political shrewdness required in these matters at the moment, but that also makes them more appealing to me, they are not just playing the same old game (yet). PS: nice nick…

What you will find if you actually try to become an activist on these issues is that "getting your platform noticed" is very much non-trivial. There is a wide and deep gulf between "having a position on an issue" and "having a mainstream newspaper write that you have a position on an issue". A particular advocacy group may be spending a ton of effort and money to get noticed about an issue, and still have a complete press blackout on the issue, and it is not necessarily their fault. In the end newspapers write about what their owners want them to write about, not what would be best for society.

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#23

Post by twelvechairs »

jellicle wrote: post #8

For the political hackers: note that these victories are made possible by Germany's proportional representation system, which guarantees seats in parliaments to any party which gets more than 5% of the popular vote across the state/city/whatever. Thus parties with broad but shallow support do get represented in government. The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post…

> The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post)

Not sure 'UK-derived nations' is a very accurate description. New Zealand for one, has a mixed-member proportional system similar to Germany. Australia has preferential voting (not first past the post) and an upper house with proportional representation. I'm sure other commonwealth states must have diversity in voting systems also, despite being otherwise 'UK-derived'.

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#24

Post by eru »

buster wrote: post #19

Jesus... and all with a "top 10 pirated movies of all time" picture gallery.. what horrible site is that!? A pretty good article for the germans among us can be found here: http://sz-magazin.sueddeutsche.de/texte/anzeigen/36648/

Thanks. That's pretty good. By the way, the Neue Zurcher Zeitung often has an interesting outsider's perspective on events in Germany (e.g. http://www.nzz.ch/marktplaetze/uebersicht/kaum_gegenwind_fue...).

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#25

Post by jeltz »

davidw wrote: post #20
hef19898 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which electoral system is better is another discussion. Both have their flaws, but a pretty good discription of how elections work in Germany.

One serious flaw of the proportional system, like Italy and Israel both have, is that a small party can be the deciding vote, and have a much larger weight than it merits. For instance: center-left party gets 48% of the vote, communists (they still exist here) get 4% of the vote. To form a majority, the large party must strike a deal with the small party, which can dictate conditions... This happens regularly in Ital…

This also happens in the Britsh system with regional parties. For example the Bloc Quebecois have often had way larger political power than their voter base.

Edit: Nothing against the Bloc (I am from Sweden), they are just an example.

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#26

Post by mhd »

hef19898 wrote: post #18
mhd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could probably work out well for them is the opposite of a "fresh approach". In an interview today, one of the new members of parliament said that he sees the PP as representing classical liberalism, as opposed to the FDP's neo-liberalism. That would be something to unite behind, beyond straight-forward internet themes. But we'll have to see whether it's something the whole party can agree on. In its ideal form,…

That's what I meant. Apparently, the old is the new fresh, or something like that. :-) What I expect from them is representation of civil rights and personal freedom in society. And you don't even have to be part of the government to do that in Germany. Just one question, you are from Germany, aren't you?

Yup (well, Bavaria, which technically does count). But while I do hope that the Pirates emerge as a new center for social liberalism, which was pretty much dismantled in the early '80s when the FDP turned towards a new wind, I'm a bit worried whether that's achievable. I would love to be wrong, but I can't see a coherent picture emerging from that much grassroots democracy.

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#27

Post by eru »

mhd wrote: post #15
hef19898 wrote: post #5

Anti-copyright group... That and the "everything for free party" are the most common discriptions media and the established parties are trying to pose on the Pirates right now. That and the misinterpretation that an opposition to an attemt to simply block child pornographic sites when you try to access them from germany equals a support of said sites. They are anew party with some, IMHO interessting fresh approaches.…

What could probably work out well for them is the opposite of a "fresh approach". In an interview today, one of the new members of parliament said that he sees the PP as representing classical liberalism, as opposed to the FDP's neo-liberalism. That would be something to unite behind, beyond straight-forward internet themes. But we'll have to see whether it's something the whole party can agree on. In its ideal form,…

Funny thing is that neo-liberalism actually used to have a different meaning in Germany. That meaning also had a synonym called Ordoliberalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism), that didn't change so much in meaning.

Anyway, the Pirateparty also has a substantial social democratic background, so calling their stance social liberalism is probably more sensible. (Using the European meaning of liberalism.)

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#28

Post by rmc »

twelvechairs wrote: post #23
jellicle wrote: post #8

For the political hackers: note that these victories are made possible by Germany's proportional representation system, which guarantees seats in parliaments to any party which gets more than 5% of the popular vote across the state/city/whatever. Thus parties with broad but shallow support do get represented in government. The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post…

> The electoral systems in the UK-derived nations (geographic districts only, first past the post) Not sure 'UK-derived nations' is a very accurate description. New Zealand for one, has a mixed-member proportional system similar to Germany. Australia has preferential voting (not first past the post) and an upper house with proportional representation. I'm sure other commonwealth states must have diversity in voting s…

Ireland also has a PR-STV system, aswell as multi member constituancies.

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#29

Post by mhd »

eru wrote: post #27
mhd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could probably work out well for them is the opposite of a "fresh approach". In an interview today, one of the new members of parliament said that he sees the PP as representing classical liberalism, as opposed to the FDP's neo-liberalism. That would be something to unite behind, beyond straight-forward internet themes. But we'll have to see whether it's something the whole party can agree on. In its ideal form,…

Funny thing is that neo-liberalism actually used to have a different meaning in Germany. That meaning also had a synonym called Ordoliberalism ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism ), that didn't change so much in meaning. Anyway, the Pirateparty also has a substantial social democratic background, so calling their stance social liberalism is probably more sensible. (Using the European meaning of liberalism.…

I was basically quoting the terms from the interview. You're right, social liberalism is probably the more appropriate term.

We do seem to like the word "social" here in Germany, even the "right-wing" parties like to use it, albeit not in the strictly socialist sense, of course. No prosperity gospel here. Probably because all the Calvinists ended up somewhere else…

Re: German Pirate Party Scores Second State Victory

#30

Post by vidarh »

davidw wrote: post #20
hef19898 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which electoral system is better is another discussion. Both have their flaws, but a pretty good discription of how elections work in Germany.

One serious flaw of the proportional system, like Italy and Israel both have, is that a small party can be the deciding vote, and have a much larger weight than it merits. For instance: center-left party gets 48% of the vote, communists (they still exist here) get 4% of the vote. To form a majority, the large party must strike a deal with the small party, which can dictate conditions... This happens regularly in Ital…

> For instance: center-left party gets 48% of the vote, communists (they still exist here) get 4% of the vote. To form a majority, the large party must strike a deal with the small party, which can dictate conditions...

Or they simply look for someone on the other side. E.g. in Germany, SPD (social democrats) routinely ignore Left (socialists and communists) and instead deals with the conservative CDU. It's not like they have only one alternative, nor like they need a majority to form a government in most countries with PR.

I don't see this as a downside. If you only get 48%, you don't even have a mandate from a majority of voters. It is only fair that you will need to negotiate with other parties to adjust how you govern to the benefit of a larger part of the population. For that matter, this shouldn't just change at 50% either - having parties representing 50% + 1 dictate policy still leaves half the population subject to the whims of a narrow majority.

> Another flaw is that, in Italy at least, since it is not the voters of a given district who decide on one of several candidates, it is the political party who decides who actually gets to be on the list of people sent to parliament. This gives a lot of power to the political party itself, and whoever controls it.

Why is this a flaw? If voters are not happy with the candidates that are nominated, they can a) join the party and vote for other candidates during nomination, or b) vote for a different party (or form one...). With proportional representation the barrier to starting a new party with a chance of taking a seat is much lowered, and it is fairly common in European politics for candidates that does not get the support of their party to get a list together as an independent and win a seat. Sometimes that even ends up forming the basis of a new party.

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