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Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

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Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#121

Post by jiggawatts »

raylad wrote: post #24

I'm not sure about chicken cells but my experience with growing human cells (WI-38 fibroblasts)[1] is that they want to grow in a monolayer. The way we grew them normally was in those roller bottles [2]: you have some tissue culture medium in the bottle (containing fetal calf serum, which is still required to grow mammalian cells AFAIK, another reason most of these companies can't do what they say) and other componen…

Surely they would be using immortal cancer cells? Those are used in human cell cultures because they conveniently have unbounded growth.

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#122

Post by callalex »

kikokikokiko wrote: post #105
zvmaz wrote: post #66

I really wish them to succeed. Imagine centuries from now, a future civilisation where human-inflicted cruelty towards billions and billions of sentient beings is ended...

I don't think your definition of sentient is very accurate. Is a chicken sentient? Or a clam? Having a nervous system does not a sentient being make. By that definition a microcontroller with sensors for temperature would be sentient. All natural animal meat is delicious and a reaaaallly efficient way of getting practically all nutrients the human body needs to thrive. I'm always surprised by the level of personal gu…

Designed?

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#123

Post by jojobas »

callalex wrote: post #120
jojobas wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forests are full of trees and trees tend to convert sunlight into wood, something that very little wildlife can eat. There's typically more food available to wildlife on pastures even when farmers try to fend off wildlife. For example, deforestation in Australia combined with a general reluctance of Australians to hunt brought about a kangaroo population explosion that requires government-mandated culls.

> wood, something that very little wildlife can eat Not all wildlife can be picked up and pet by a human. That doesn’t mean it’s not a living being participating with a vital role in the ecosystem. There was a time before life could eat wood, and that time period is why the energy source is named “fossil fuel” and “dino juice”, that time period was long ago.

Wood is mostly consumed by fungus. If that's wildlife in your book, fine.

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#124

Post by civilitty »

nicoburns wrote: post #81
raylad wrote: post #24

I'm not sure about chicken cells but my experience with growing human cells (WI-38 fibroblasts)[1] is that they want to grow in a monolayer. The way we grew them normally was in those roller bottles [2]: you have some tissue culture medium in the bottle (containing fetal calf serum, which is still required to grow mammalian cells AFAIK, another reason most of these companies can't do what they say) and other componen…

> The cells want to grow in a one-cell-thick monolayer all over the inside of the bottle. What they won't do is to grow a double layer. This is because they have "contact inhibition" which is a major mechanism for preventing tumor-like growth: when cells are touching each other, they stop dividing. How does that work inside the human body, where presumably they do form 3D structures?

It's incredibly complicated and every type of tissue has it's own specific mechanisms for forming it's 3D structure but the short answer is that there is an "extracellular matrix" that forms a network of macromolecules using collagen, elastin, fibronectin, and a bunch more signaling and structural proteins that organize cell growth.

The ECM starts developing in the fetus and figuring out how it grows from a few cells into a bunch of differentiated organs, muscles, bone, etc. is a core problem in embryology (biology in general, really). If we knew enough to make proper meat, we'd probably be steps away from a Jurassic park scenario.

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#125

Post by callalex »

jojobas wrote: post #123
callalex wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wood, something that very little wildlife can eat Not all wildlife can be picked up and pet by a human. That doesn’t mean it’s not a living being participating with a vital role in the ecosystem. There was a time before life could eat wood, and that time period is why the energy source is named “fossil fuel” and “dino juice”, that time period was long ago.

Wood is mostly consumed by fungus. If that's wildlife in your book, fine.

It is! I can tell that my interpretation is annoying to you though so I will leave you alone with a question. Who then eats the fungus? And who eats that?

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#126

Post by jojobas »

callalex wrote: post #125
jojobas wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wood is mostly consumed by fungus. If that's wildlife in your book, fine.

It is! I can tell that my interpretation is annoying to you though so I will leave you alone with a question. Who then eats the fungus? And who eats that?

Some fungus fruit bodies are eaten by insect larva, which feeds into birds. Most of the energy stored in the wood is just wasted bypassing any macroscopic wildlife. If forests were efficient in feeding mammals or birds (i.e. making meat) our farms would have been forests.

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#127

Post by explaininjs »

dundarious wrote: post #113
explaininjs wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beef cattle are almost always raised on open pastureland. They live a very normal, happy, life for all their years. Yes their last moments are perhaps bad, but then so are ours. Would you rather not exist at all if it saved you from dying?

Not true in the US, the market in question for TFA. Beef cattle are mostly raised on feed lots, fed by crops specifically grown as cattle feed, such as alfalfa. My understanding for US beef is that it's something like 80% from feed lot, 20% pasture.

Cattle are not raised in feed lots.

Feed lots do sometimes come into play for finishing beef cattle, but this takes only ~4 months. And it is very possible to buy pasture&grass finished beef that doesn’t use feed lots at all.

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#128

Post by dundarious »

explaininjs wrote: post #127
dundarious wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true in the US, the market in question for TFA. Beef cattle are mostly raised on feed lots, fed by crops specifically grown as cattle feed, such as alfalfa. My understanding for US beef is that it's something like 80% from feed lot, 20% pasture.

Cattle are not raised in feed lots. Feed lots do sometimes come into play for finishing beef cattle, but this takes only ~4 months. And it is very possible to buy pasture&grass finished beef that doesn’t use feed lots at all.

I shouldn't have said "raised", that was wrong, but I just wanted to talk about beef cattle that are not pasture grazing at all, or at least only for a tiny percentage of their lifespan. About 80% of beef cattle go from mother's milk, to feed lot once weaned.

Of course you can buy the other stuff, I said as much.

My point is that this statement is one part deceptive, and one part obviously wrong for the US, the market in question.

> Beef cattle are almost always raised on open pastureland. They live a very normal, happy, life for all their years.

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#129

Post by jahnu »

jononomo wrote: post #84
jahnu wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only we subsidised this as much as we subside meat production. Or perhaps subsidise nothing. Either way it’s not yet a level playing field.

Why do you think we subsidize meat production? Isn't it sugar and soybeans that we subsidize?

Check out how massive the subsidy difference is

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/18/gigantic...

Re: Insiders reveal problems at Upside Foods

#130

Post by raylad »

jiggawatts wrote: post #121
raylad wrote: post #24

I'm not sure about chicken cells but my experience with growing human cells (WI-38 fibroblasts)[1] is that they want to grow in a monolayer. The way we grew them normally was in those roller bottles [2]: you have some tissue culture medium in the bottle (containing fetal calf serum, which is still required to grow mammalian cells AFAIK, another reason most of these companies can't do what they say) and other componen…

Surely they would be using immortal cancer cells? Those are used in human cell cultures because they conveniently have unbounded growth.

That would be a Bad Idea: if anyone ate raw cancer cells they could potentially form a tumor if they got into a cut and survived.
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