In other news, we have an upgrade path at work to go from Java 8 to Java 11 pretty soon.
8 to 17 for us
Try with 8 --> 11 first then 11 --> 17
Java 21 makes me like Java again
291–300 of 777 posts
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#292The problems with Java can't be fixed by adding new things, you can't undo decades of ecosystem development, training, and ideology built on top of the idea that inheritance is really good idea and belongs everywhere. edit: I will say that as a Java developer I am grateful every day for the improvements to the language. Java is a very impressive language and I have a lot of respect for the people working on it.
Yeah, I think this is the part that gets me. To be fair, I think well designed Java is flexible in exactly the right ways for an enterprise development. The trouble is that enterprises don't typically pay well enough to get people who are really good and the popular ways of building Java applications are not great.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#293Earlier quoted context omitted.
A minimal Java app can easily start up in 0.1 seconds, which might just as well be good enough, but if not, there is also GraalVM that can output a native binary.
I’ll just leave this with you. 0.1 difference may not seem like a lot until you start hitting 100M invocations. https://mikhail.io/serverless/coldstarts/aws/languages/
Wouldn't you have a lot of warm starts with that many invocations?
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#294Sad this gets to front page while a blog post which documents that .NET 8 has 200 A4 pages worth of performance improvements gets absolutely ignored. C# keeps being the language people are looking for but don't know about.
Its a good language, but the corporate sponsor and community is suspect. Microsoft has a long history of user hostile actions. The types of companies that use C# often treat SWE as second class. Learning and using C# limits career options to low salary, high stress jobs.
I'm going to vouch for this comment but not because it is correct but rather it presents good opportunity to address the concern.
C# and .NET are most heavily invested in by Microsoft which owns and steers its development, that is true. It is also true that JVM world sees investment from multiple MSFT-sized corporations.
And yet, despite the above, it keeps moving forward and outperforming Java on user experience, performance and features despite being worked on by much smaller teams. I think it stands on its own as a measure of a well-made technology.
In addition, you can look at source code and contribute yourself, 90% of what makes .NET run is below. Almost all development happens in the open:
https://github.com/dotnet/runtime
https://github.com/dotnet/installer
https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn
https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore
As for career opportunities, as other commenters would note, this is highly specific to a region and does not translate globally. Again, we are discussing the "how good the language/platform is" first and foremost. I don't see startups adopting Go because of the market or trusting Google not to rug pull them...so perhaps we can do a better job so the next language of choice they pick is C#, which has much higher ROI in the hands of the good developers (for example, it can be very easy to adopt as a second language if you are well versed in Rust).
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
You need to inherit to create anything that is a class. But the focus is on composition. You inherit from useful classes so you can build the solution using composition. I don’t like modern Java because there’s too much non-Java magic code. Layers of stuff that “helps” but removes me from the language. Entire programs written in config and special text wrapping classes and methods. How it works requires understanding…
> You need to inherit to create anything that is a class That's true of the Java compiler, for which the documentation is strewn around the intenet...but an example is here: https://medium.com/javarevisited/compiler-generated-classes-... The Java syntax doe not require extending Object explicitly.eg This is a valid, useless, class: public class App {} > I don’t like modern Java because there’s too much non-Java magic…
The OP/GP wasn't really complaining about inheritance, despite the fact that this is what they wrote.
The OP is complaining about the difficulty of the API because it is _exposed_ through inheritance.
The complaint about `SpringBootServletInitializer`, for example, is exactly this. There's nothing wrong with inheritance. In fact, SpringBootServletInitializer is exactly what you want to use inheritance for - because you need to build your app using the servlet api.
There are http servers that aren't servlet api, such as https://vertx.io/docs/vertx-web/java/#_re_cap_on_vert_x_core... , which uses little to no inheritance (since the api surface is smaller).
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
`Executor.newVirtualThreadPerTaskExecutor` versus `go` really gets to the heart of why I think that Go developers aren't going to be switching. edit: Sorry, it's actually: try (var executor = Executors.newVirtualThreadPerTaskExecutor()) { executor.submit(...) ) instead of `go`
The go example is missing the channels, select, wait group, context, cancellation Doesn’t sound like a fair comparison thou the Java version is missing things
> The go example is missing the channels, select, wait group, context, cancellation
The Java version would require all of those in the exact same way though.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#297Sad this gets to front page while a blog post which documents that .NET 8 has 200 A4 pages worth of performance improvements gets absolutely ignored. C# keeps being the language people are looking for but don't know about.
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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please ELI5 what is wrong with inheritance and/or how Java have it wrong. Do we need to go back to a new object oriented undegraduate course? Genuinely asking.
"Prefer composition over inheritance" is actually a well-known mantra and appears in, for example, the Design Patterns book from 1994, which is basically the OOP bible. And this is within the OOP bubble, you won't even find inheritance outside of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns Don't take undergraduate OOP courses seriously.
> a well-known mantra
which isn't an explanation, but just the same as the OOP mantra that was taught in undergraduate courses.
Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#299The biggest feature in Java 21 is the release of Virtual Threads: https://openjdk.org/jeps/444 For some reason, this is missing from the article. If there was any feature that would sway existing Golang developers to switch to Java, it would be this. It would perhaps also convince the haters of the reactive-style concurrency patterns.
No thank you. There is limited time in the day and go fills my needs. Go, Rust, Ruby. These three cover all cases.
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Re: Java 21 makes me like Java again
#300In other news, we have an upgrade path at work to go from Java 8 to Java 11 pretty soon.
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