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Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

timesofisrael.com

11–20 of 52 posts

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#11
post #3

16 million people in a country smaller than New Jersey that is arid, has limited water, etc seems like a lot. Population growth rates often slow down when young people are crammed into apartments even if they are very religious. Curious if the models predict this

>has limited water

Is this really a risk? They get 85% of their drinking water from desalination and since Israel is on the Mediterranean running out of water doesn't seem likely.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#12
post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

I wonder how much of Catholicism’s continued decline can be attributed to Vatican II? I never experienced the OG mass format, but it seems possibly less dumb than the modern “life lecture by a guy with no actual life experience”. It was in decline at the time and they were trying to save it, but I feel like a resurgence might have been more likely if they hadn’t neutered it.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#13
post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

I wonder how much of Catholicism’s continued decline can be attributed to Vatican II? I never experienced the OG mass format, but it seems possibly less dumb than the modern “life lecture by a guy with no actual life experience”. It was in decline at the time and they were trying to save it, but I feel like a resurgence might have been more likely if they hadn’t neutered it.

OG Catholics have fertility rates around what Haredi Jews have, so the answer is basically yes. With caveats.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#14
post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is not like the American religious practices you mention, where faith is a matter of identity but only expressed on Sundays or whatever. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is a total way of life, for men especially it determines your daily schedule every day of the week. The Torah study that many men engage in full-time gives them a distinct body of knowledge and perspective that makes them feel part of th…

My understanding of the community is that the women are often the breadwinners in addition to being homemakers and caretakers. I wonder if/how this will be sustainable as things become more and more expensive.

Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#15

What confuses me most about Israel’s rising political turmoil is that the faction driving for violence against Muslims (the ultra orthodox) are also exempt from the military. Say they get everything they want and they become an apartheid, theocracy…how do they expect to survive? Who will defend them from their neighbors and from their Muslim citizens? How would the country with arguably the greatest need for a strong…

Yours is a frequent misunderstanding outside Israel. Ultra-Orthodox aren’t necessarily driving for violence against Muslims, and some Ultra-Orthodox groups are anti-Zionist. If you visit a West Bank settlement, you meet a lot of plain Orthodox, and also secular Israelis who are on the hawkish end of the spectrum. When I visited the West Bank, I was invited in by a family who immigrated from former USSR on grounds of…

Your statement has the same air of statements like "not every man is a sexist", yes but men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women. If Jews do not hold to account the extremist views that lead to murder and violence their brothers have then they are too blame as well.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a frequent misunderstanding outside Israel. Ultra-Orthodox aren’t necessarily driving for violence against Muslims, and some Ultra-Orthodox groups are anti-Zionist. If you visit a West Bank settlement, you meet a lot of plain Orthodox, and also secular Israelis who are on the hawkish end of the spectrum. When I visited the West Bank, I was invited in by a family who immigrated from former USSR on grounds of…

Your statement has the same air of statements like "not every man is a sexist", yes but men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women. If Jews do not hold to account the extremist views that lead to murder and violence their brothers have then they are too blame as well.

Your post is needlessly strident and kneejerk, and your claim that an uninvolved third party has to take certain action to avoid blame is obviously not something that everyone would agree on. In any event, Israeli society is extremely divided and, indeed, half of it has been trying hard to hold the other half to account. This is obvious to any visitor to Israel who talks to a wide range of people. Protests have been going on for years, and the current wave of protests has been widely reported in the international news.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#17

What confuses me most about Israel’s rising political turmoil is that the faction driving for violence against Muslims (the ultra orthodox) are also exempt from the military. Say they get everything they want and they become an apartheid, theocracy…how do they expect to survive? Who will defend them from their neighbors and from their Muslim citizens? How would the country with arguably the greatest need for a strong…

Yours is a frequent misunderstanding outside Israel. Ultra-Orthodox aren’t necessarily driving for violence against Muslims, and some Ultra-Orthodox groups are anti-Zionist. If you visit a West Bank settlement, you meet a lot of plain Orthodox, and also secular Israelis who are on the hawkish end of the spectrum. When I visited the West Bank, I was invited in by a family who immigrated from former USSR on grounds of…

As they say, the fastest way to get an answer is to say something wrong. I appreciate the info.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a frequent misunderstanding outside Israel. Ultra-Orthodox aren’t necessarily driving for violence against Muslims, and some Ultra-Orthodox groups are anti-Zionist. If you visit a West Bank settlement, you meet a lot of plain Orthodox, and also secular Israelis who are on the hawkish end of the spectrum. When I visited the West Bank, I was invited in by a family who immigrated from former USSR on grounds of…

Your statement has the same air of statements like "not every man is a sexist", yes but men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women. If Jews do not hold to account the extremist views that lead to murder and violence their brothers have then they are too blame as well.

He responded directly to my question about religious views plus military service.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a frequent misunderstanding outside Israel. Ultra-Orthodox aren’t necessarily driving for violence against Muslims, and some Ultra-Orthodox groups are anti-Zionist. If you visit a West Bank settlement, you meet a lot of plain Orthodox, and also secular Israelis who are on the hawkish end of the spectrum. When I visited the West Bank, I was invited in by a family who immigrated from former USSR on grounds of…

Your statement has the same air of statements like "not every man is a sexist", yes but men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women. If Jews do not hold to account the extremist views that lead to murder and violence their brothers have then they are too blame as well.

> men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women

So many questions.

Why?

Does this rule apply to both genders? What about other things? Nationality, hair color?

If someone transitions into another gender do they lose the original sin that taints their original gender? Is Elliot Page responsible for the sins of men?

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is not like the American religious practices you mention, where faith is a matter of identity but only expressed on Sundays or whatever. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is a total way of life, for men especially it determines your daily schedule every day of the week. The Torah study that many men engage in full-time gives them a distinct body of knowledge and perspective that makes them feel part of th…

My understanding of the community is that the women are often the breadwinners in addition to being homemakers and caretakers. I wonder if/how this will be sustainable as things become more and more expensive. Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside i…

>Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences

both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you.

it's one of the major pain points in israeli politics/society. army supposed to be people army but big chunk of population avoids it and all the time tries to pushes through knesset laws to make this avoidance permanent and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause)

one of the reasons for the very messy supreme court reform in israel that been ongoing for past half an year is to allow to make law that will give permanent exception from army to orthodox . they even wanted to make recently law that equates tora study to army service

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