Live data from Hacker News

MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

nature.com

61–70 of 110 posts

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#61
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> sex assigned at birth... female sex assigned at birth > As an aside - in a scientific article, this is insane language to use and really calls into question the assumptions and conclusions. i'm not really familiar with scientific writing, but why would that be insane language to use? what would be better?

It's not a scientific statement, it's a political statement. It doesn't matter if you agree with that political statement or not - it simply has no business being in a scientific report. Injecting political ideology into what is supposed to be factual findings is wrong. In scientific writing, such as studies like this - just the facts please. Anything else opens questions about motivations, conclusions, etc.

> It's not a scientific statement, it's a political statement.

This is a good point. Once a scientific term becomes politicized by its usage outside of clinical settings, it ceases to be scientific.

For example, weight has become politicized so when you read something like “7lb 5oz infant” in a study you can just throw the whole thing in the trash because the researcher has clearly gone Woke.

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#62

Even as someone who has used this recreational, I'm very sceptical about mdma for medical treatment. I have seen smart people needing professional help for a very long time after using this too often. And too often is already every second weekend, because the body needs so long to restore the serotonine. But maybe they are using very little doses? I can still not believe that taking this regularily is a good idea. Ed…

The proposed use is MDMA-assisted therapy. Take a dose, talk to a therapist. Wait a month, repeat. You seem to be imagining people popping the stuff like SSRIs.

Intuitively, this makes a lot of sense. MDMA is a fun drug because of the fact that it makes it basically impossible to feel negative emotion under its effect. PTSD is characterized by extreme negative emotion around a particular trauma, to such an extent that it becomes disruptive to living a normal life. Just talking about the traumatic inducing experience can lead to uncontrolled emotional responses, making it difficult to approach therapeutically. The MDMA acts as a shortcut around that last bit: by blocking the patient from feeling negative emotion while they talk about their trauma, they can re-evaluate it in a more removed way.

Combine that with theories about how we edit memories when we recall them, and you've got a pretty obvious method of action.

It's not intended to be a chronically taken treatment. But the results were pretty massive. That CAPS-5 score they talk about the reduction by 24 points versus therapy alone's 15 is on an 80 point scale, with the bare minimum for PTSD diagnosis at a 12, and "moderate" PTSD being in the 23-35 range.

Compared to most results coming out of the mental illness treatment field, MDMA's looking like a silver bullet.

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#63
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a scientific statement, it's a political statement. It doesn't matter if you agree with that political statement or not - it simply has no business being in a scientific report. Injecting political ideology into what is supposed to be factual findings is wrong. In scientific writing, such as studies like this - just the facts please. Anything else opens questions about motivations, conclusions, etc.

> It's not a scientific statement, it's a political statement. This is a good point. Once a scientific term becomes politicized by its usage outside of clinical settings, it ceases to be scientific. For example, weight has become politicized so when you read something like “7lb 5oz infant” in a study you can just throw the whole thing in the trash because the researcher has clearly gone Woke.

In scientific writing Mass is usually referenced instead of Weight, because weight changes depending where you are, even on the same planet (being a measurement of gravitational force).

You are making my point even stronger... and weight being political is news to me.

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#64
As with all of these studies, it’s important to remember that this isn’t evidence that taking MDMA by itself is therapeutic. The therapy sessions are the primary treatment in this study and the MDMA is being explored as an adjunct to therapy.

I don’t know who needs to hear this, but: Taking MDMA you bought off the street and hoping it’s going to cure whatever ails you isn’t even remotely similar to what’s being studied here. MDMA is also well known to produce depressive rebound effects in the following days that can worsen mental health problems if the patient isn’t properly monitored and prepared. (and no, taking some supplements and 5-HTP won’t save you from all the side effects no matter what that guy on the internet claims)

Importantly, both the MDMA-assisted therapy and the regular therapy groups improved over the course of this study. It should go without saying that regular old therapy is and will continue to be the first-line treatment for PTSD. People will debate the relative safety of MDMA all day long, but no matter how you look at it, MDMA will always be more risky than therapy alone. The MDMA group had a 1-in-10 incidence of treatment related adverse events, for example.

Another important piece of context is that true placebo control is impossible in these studies. Patients and caregivers will know which patients received MDMA due to the dramatic effects of the drug. This doesn’t negate the study, but you do have to consider the fact that these patients went into this study expecting to maybe get MDMA with the expectation that MDMA would help them. They would no doubt be either excited or disappointed after realizing which group they were in. This will, unfortunately, impact the results in ways that can’t be measured.

I hope future studies will compare against an active control group. It would be much better to compare, for example, therapy with placebo, therapy with SSRI, and therapy with MDMA. It’s easy to differentiate from placebo, but it’s much harder to find new treatments that outperform existing options.

Another alternative would be to trial an active placebo group. For example, if one group received MDMA and another group received a dose of amphetamine then both groups would know they had received a psychoactive drug with euphoriant properties, but if they were truly drug naive (as asked in the intake screener) then theoretically they wouldn’t be able to tell which group they were in. This would more effectively isolate MDMA’s unique properties, if any, without breaking the blinding as much.

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#65
post #25

I’m skeptical that a placebo control for MDMA can be valid. The effects of MDMA are pretty noticeable. The study actually asked participants if they thought they were on MDMA, and most answered correctly. If the participants can tell, it somewhat defeats the purpose of having a placebo control group.

My understanding is that in trials like this they’ll usually use a benzodiazepine as the control. Not psychedelic, but psychoactive enough that a drug-naive person wouldn’t know for sure what they were on.

This was not an active placebo study. The placebo group did not receive any medication.

Benzodiazepines would not be an appropriate active placebo anyway as they are a sedative, not a stimulant. They would also be expected to interfere with the therapy because they impair memory and alertness, so that’s a no-go.

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#66
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a scientific statement, it's a political statement. It doesn't matter if you agree with that political statement or not - it simply has no business being in a scientific report. Injecting political ideology into what is supposed to be factual findings is wrong. In scientific writing, such as studies like this - just the facts please. Anything else opens questions about motivations, conclusions, etc.

> In scientific writing, such as studies like this - just the facts please. But those are just very precise facts? Clarifying that they refer to "female sex assigned at birth" is strictly less ambiguous than "female".

Alupis is simply trying to help out Science in an objective and apolitical way by pointing out that some phrases can rile people up into hooting and hollering. Phrases like “assigned female at birth” can, to use an empirical term, “whip one up into a real doozy of a tizzy” that can only be quelled by posting. Anything that might trigger Poster’s Rage is definitionally Not Science because scientific words do not make people “get all flustered”

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#67
post #40
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think MDMA is really in the business of bad trips.

Many people have had bad trips on MDMA. I don't know where this reputation comes from, but it's common to have extremely intense and unpleasant emotions, sensations, or thoughts. Anxiety, agitation, muscle tension, sweating, and/or chills are all documented effects of the drug. For a dozens of anecdotes, just search "MDMA bad trip".

Meh.

What's your source?

Yes, those things can of course happen, but they're very rare and in the minority.

It is absolutely NOT common to have a "bad" experience with a drug that is chemically designed to make you feel incredible via serotonin depletion.

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#68
post #28

I’m skeptical that a placebo control for MDMA can be valid. The effects of MDMA are pretty noticeable. The study actually asked participants if they thought they were on MDMA, and most answered correctly. If the participants can tell, it somewhat defeats the purpose of having a placebo control group.

If you start with people who know what MDMA feels like, I suspect you're sunk for the reasons you state. But if for instance the placebo were niacin... niacin makes most people feel funny. If you don't know what MDMA or a niacin flush feels like, you might just know something is happening but not what. And then you test people who don't experience niacin flush with or without a placebo to make sure that niacin isn't…

Blinding isn’t just about the patients - It’s about the therapy providers as well. We would like to think they’d provide the same treatment regardless of what the patient received but over-eager researchers tend to get more excited about the active group and provide them more attention and enthusiasm.

Niacin isn’t a great placebo these days because it’s not the 70s any more and people going into these studies will probably Google what to expect from the drug. Also Niacin is short acting and makes people itchy and uncomfortable, so it’s not really compatible with therapy.

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#69
post #52

Even as someone who has used this recreational, I'm very sceptical about mdma for medical treatment. I have seen smart people needing professional help for a very long time after using this too often. And too often is already every second weekend, because the body needs so long to restore the serotonine. But maybe they are using very little doses? I can still not believe that taking this regularily is a good idea. Ed…

> And too often is already every second weekend, because the body needs so long to restore the serotonine. Get some 5HTP in you.

Nice to learn s.th. xD. I'm probably a bit too old now anywas. I just knew bananas and nuts are good, but not why^^

Re: MDMA-assisted therapy for PTSD: A randomized, placebo-controlled phase 3 trial

#70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a scientific statement, it's a political statement. This is a good point. Once a scientific term becomes politicized by its usage outside of clinical settings, it ceases to be scientific. For example, weight has become politicized so when you read something like “7lb 5oz infant” in a study you can just throw the whole thing in the trash because the researcher has clearly gone Woke.

In scientific writing Mass is usually referenced instead of Weight, because weight changes depending where you are, even on the same planet (being a measurement of gravitational force). You are making my point even stronger... and weight being political is news to me.

> Mass is usually referenced instead of Weight

You’re telling me buddy! People actually think that doctors weigh babies and write down the numbers they see on the scale when everybody really smart knows they measure infant Mass by measuring their liquid displacement and multiplying it by the density of the standardized homogenous baby slurry provided by NIST.

It’s like dang John Stewart in every delivery theater I tell you what

Post reply on HN