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Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

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Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, unfortunately. I've confirmed it with their support. Requests always hit their CDN. For example, set up a small server that sends the following response headers: Date: Original-Date: Cloudflare will always rewrite the Date header, you just won't notice it until the Date header happens to fall on a time a few ms from the next second (e.g. Wed, 13 Sep 2023 22:02:51.999). This is because by the time Cloudflare proc…

Will your solution work with any CDN at all? It seems the issue is not specific to Cloudflare. `Date` is a registered field [0] used by origin server as defined in RFC 9110 [1]. Any CDN server will add its own date to that header since it's acting as the origin server for that request. For Cloudflare in particular, you could try setting Cache-Control to Private=Date and see if the edge cache skips the override [2]. W…

I don't know, and that's why I want a WAF without a CDN. I don't need a CDN at all, and I wish I could disable Cloudflare's.

But per RFC 9110 [^0], "the Date header field represents the date and time at which the message was originated." The message comes from my server, not Cloudflare. If they're getting the message from me, i.e. it's not cached by their CDN, they should leave the Date header alone because the message didn't originate with them. [^1]

Maybe I have a misunderstanding of where Cloudflare sits as the "origin server" when their CDN isn't used for caching (i.e. it's bypassed as much as is allowable). I would think my server is the "origin" and theirs is the "edge."

And unfortunately, workers do not allow you to set the Date header -- Cloudflare support and I already tried that a couple years back (i.e. setting Date = Keygen-Date via a worker).

I will take a look at 2. I doubt that'd work, but it's worth a try.

[^0]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9110.html#name-date

[^1]: https://httpwg.org/specs/rfc7230.html#rfc.section.5.7.2

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fastly has one too, but I don't have direct experience with it: https://www.fastly.com/products/web-application-api-protecti... Imperva also has one, but I can't recommend that one. We had them before Cloudflare and they were ridiculously expensive and not very good. Cloudflare was dramatically better and several orders of magnitude cheaper. That was back in like 2015 though so maybe it's different now.

Looking into Fastly WAF now. Thanks for the recommendation.

I don't work on that team, but I work _with_ that team and consistently hear that people think the support is excellent, so be sure to ask about that as you reach out to them.

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will your solution work with any CDN at all? It seems the issue is not specific to Cloudflare. `Date` is a registered field [0] used by origin server as defined in RFC 9110 [1]. Any CDN server will add its own date to that header since it's acting as the origin server for that request. For Cloudflare in particular, you could try setting Cache-Control to Private=Date and see if the edge cache skips the override [2]. W…

I don't know, and that's why I want a WAF without a CDN. I don't need a CDN at all, and I wish I could disable Cloudflare's. But per RFC 9110 [^0], "the Date header field represents the date and time at which the message was originated." The message comes from my server, not Cloudflare. If they're getting the message from me, i.e. it's not cached by their CDN, they should leave the Date header alone because the messa…

Yeah, looks like CF should not consider itself the origin, at least if the request wasn't cached.

But I'm thinking the edge cache is dumb. Some of their docs mention that requests that aren't cached are actually just revalidated and cached at the edge (probably TTL=0) and then served by the dumb edge cache... and they didn't consider they shouldn't be entitled to be the origin in that case.

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#34
I'm launching a competitor for just these reasons ... https://skip2.net

Hosted DNS (so you'd just have to change your nameservers,) CDN, WAF, and all the other goodies like compression/image transformation/SSL.

I've got support on the list... What else do you want to see in a solution like this (anyone)?

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#35

I'm launching a competitor for just these reasons ... https://skip2.net Hosted DNS (so you'd just have to change your nameservers,) CDN, WAF, and all the other goodies like compression/image transformation/SSL. I've got support on the list... What else do you want to see in a solution like this (anyone)?

Remove the word hate it will decrease sales

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#36
post #35

I'm launching a competitor for just these reasons ... https://skip2.net Hosted DNS (so you'd just have to change your nameservers,) CDN, WAF, and all the other goodies like compression/image transformation/SSL. I've got support on the list... What else do you want to see in a solution like this (anyone)?

Remove the word hate it will decrease sales

Done, thanks for the suggestion

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#37

I'm launching a competitor for just these reasons ... https://skip2.net Hosted DNS (so you'd just have to change your nameservers,) CDN, WAF, and all the other goodies like compression/image transformation/SSL. I've got support on the list... What else do you want to see in a solution like this (anyone)?

Make it extremely easy, like with the addition of an API key, to swap over to your service during a failover/outage.

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#38
post #11

I think Fastly offers some similar products: https://www.fastly.com/edge-cloud-network/ But Cloudflare offers a lot of features/services. What specifically are you trying to find alternatives for?

Essentially we just need 1) edge cache to cache response from our website / api 2) and firewall rules

I love Verizon's Edgecast cache feature. It just works so well.

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#39

I'm launching a competitor for just these reasons ... https://skip2.net Hosted DNS (so you'd just have to change your nameservers,) CDN, WAF, and all the other goodies like compression/image transformation/SSL. I've got support on the list... What else do you want to see in a solution like this (anyone)?

Make it extremely easy, like with the addition of an API key, to swap over to your service during a failover/outage.

Love this. Thank you!

Re: Ask HN: Are there good Cloudflare alternatives? e.g., edge cache, firewall

#40
post #24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to double-check your plan to ensure you're not on Business or Pro. If you are indeed on the Enterprise plan, information about your account manager and contact plans should have been in the onboarding PowerPoint they serve as part of the setup. If you don't have that, I'd follow the instructions in https://developers.cloudflare.com/support/troubleshooting/ge... I'd also consider opening a ticket asking a…

yes, it’s enterprise plan… i’ll create a ticket to ask for account manager . maybe there’s also a hierarchy of enterprise customers. small-ish enterprise customers are not that valuable to them …

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