Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#351

Post by LtWorf » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 7:58 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #327

LtWorf wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union would protect everyone. And nobody is saying that a senior engineer should get paid the same as a junior. You live under the impression that better workers will earn more. In practice the skill that earns higher salary is to pretend to be very competent by using jargon and parroting stuff.

> " In practice the skill that earns higher salary is to pretend to be very competent by using jargon and parroting stuff. " Remember that people who believe things like this would be in the same union as you, be paid just as well as you thanks to union contracts, and expect you to strike on their behalf. Do you really want to be in solidarity with people like this?

So? Everybody else would be too.

Did you also renounced your citizenship because there was someone you didn't like in your same country?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#352

Post by jhp123 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 8:43 PM UTC

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

The old-fashioned way to level this accusation is to say that the union is "Procrustean", named after the mythical Greek King who would chop people's limbs off or stretch them on a rack so as to fit the exact dimensions of his bed.

    For THERSITES & Co., for the weakly and small,
    Who in free competition must go to the wall,
    The plan of PROCRUSTES has obvious charms:
    "Cut 'em down to our standard, chop legs, shorten arms!
    Bring us all to one level in power and pay,
    By the rule of a legalised Eight Hours Day!"

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#353

Post by zaphar » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 8:46 PM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #283

zaphar wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineer is not the only job I've every had. I've been the janitor sweeping floors, I've been the guy on the assembly line. I've literally supported my family by working day labor with no certainty of continued employment. I have always been able to find a place and prove myself worthy of the pay without sacrificing my health, or family time. I've quit jobs when I no longer felt like it was the right place f…

> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. Yes it is. It's important to look for the privileges you were born into that allowed you to get to where you are now. Because not everyone starts at the same starting line. It's great that you have such a strong work ethic and are so self reliant but life comes at you fast, and sometimes you need some outside help. Illness, accidents, family emergencies, wildf…

   If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do?

I would stand in his way with my own fists.

You say I have privilege which I suppose I do. I have it because I worked on myself to get them and stood up for myself when I needed to. I have no college degree. I grew up poor. I think perhaps one of the greatest injustices you can do to someone is tell them they are stuck with no recourse and have no leverage they can exercise. I think that's a lie that imprisons people in circumstances they don't need to be stuck in.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by bluGill » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 8:58 PM UTC

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #347

bluGill wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions have not helped their cause over here. They have regularly enforced paying bad people more than good people because the only measure they allow is years on the job. They regularly prevent people who want to move into management from doing so (not to be confused with people who don't want to!) be not allowing anything learned to count for your management role. They regularly discourage learning something more.…

> They have regularly enforced paying bad people more than good people because the only measure they allow is years on the job. This is blatant propaganda. Stop repeating it, it's just false. There are plenty of unions where compensation has nothing to do with seniority, just look at SAG-AFTRA: Daniel Radcliffe was making a lot more than actor playing Mr. Dursely, despite the the latter having more acting experience…

It is not false. It is not true for all unions, but it is true for some.

Management is NOT your enemy. This is probably the worst lie unions keep repeating. The best solutions are win-win. Yes management has different interests, but that doesn't make them an enemy.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#355

Post by OkayPhysicist » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 9:20 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #354

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They have regularly enforced paying bad people more than good people because the only measure they allow is years on the job. This is blatant propaganda. Stop repeating it, it's just false. There are plenty of unions where compensation has nothing to do with seniority, just look at SAG-AFTRA: Daniel Radcliffe was making a lot more than actor playing Mr. Dursely, despite the the latter having more acting experience…

It is not false. It is not true for all unions, but it is true for some. Management is NOT your enemy. This is probably the worst lie unions keep repeating. The best solutions are win-win. Yes management has different interests, but that doesn't make them an enemy.

Fundamentally, why do we work? We work for money. The employees want to make as much money as possible, the employer wants to make as much as possible. Management, representing capital, can make more money by paying their employees less. Therein lies the fundamental, unsolvable conflict between labor and management.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by workingjubilee » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #312

dfxm12 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America abandoned unions for a reason. It's been a concerted effort of corporate capitalists: buying & influencing media outlets, lobbying, offshoring, etc.

So? Unions also bought and influenced media outlets. They also lobbied. It's not like unions just sat there while management poisoned the country's mind against unions. Unions were not able to make a compelling case. They had every chance to do so, starting with them being the default option in many industries. America abandoned unions for a reason. It may have taken a concerted effort by corporate capitalists to get…

It can be the case that people didn't feel that unions were a net positive from the 1960s~2000s and now, starting from somewhere in the late 2010s, have begun reconsidering whether unions are net positive. All that needs to change is conditions altering which make unions seem to be a net positive.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#357

Post by supertimor » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 9:48 PM UTC

zaphar wrote: post #353

fragmede wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> None of what I've done is out of reach for anyone else. Yes it is. It's important to look for the privileges you were born into that allowed you to get to where you are now. Because not everyone starts at the same starting line. It's great that you have such a strong work ethic and are so self reliant but life comes at you fast, and sometimes you need some outside help. Illness, accidents, family emergencies, wildf…

If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? I would stand in his way with my own fists. You say I have privilege which I suppose I do. I have it because I worked on myself to get them and stood up for myself when I needed to. I have no college degree. I grew up poor. I think perhaps one of the greatest injustices you can do to someone is tell them they are stuck with no recourse and hav…

>Look at the bigger picture. If your boss was assaulting a co-worker with his fists, what would you do? Yell at your co-worker and tell them to have more self-respect? Why, when it's financial or cultural instead shouldn't you stand up for them as well?

> I would stand in his way with my own fists.

Ok, but that’s what unionizing is. Standing up to your employer to stop rampant abuse to you and your fellow coworkers.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by supertimor » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 10:26 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #49

alexb_ wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public unions are a completely different beast than private unions.

Is there a good example I should know about?

All the entertainment unions (IATSE, WGA, SAG, DGA, and I think even some athlete unions, etc), do not base their pay off of seniority and also don’t cap their pay. So higher skilled players can absolutely still negotiate terms and pay when accepting a job. The workers in these unions just have access to more protections.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Post by Izkata » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

runako wrote: post #259

iteria wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up > There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau. I've been doing this for over 10 years. When is the plateau coming? Even lateral moves for me bump my paid up to wha…

I sort of guessed you were earlier in your career. The plateau broadly is around $250k in TC, with engineers having to move into management (e.g. change jobs) to earn much more. (Yes, there are some companies where this is not true. But most tech workers do not work at pure tech firms and so this is more aligned with their reality.) Let's approximate a non-plateau career ladder this way: - 20s: $150k - 30s: $250k (+…

To me those numbers look insanely high. Like even the 250k that you're using as a baseline for the plateau, that's around double what is expect for that experience.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#360

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 11:36 PM UTC

iteria wrote: post #251

runako wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau.

> > my wage at a job may not rise quickly, my raise at a job jump rockets up > There's a well-known plateau in tech wages that affects most tech workers. Look at what your current employer pays people 10 or 20 years older than you for the type of work you do and you will be able to observe the plateau. I've been doing this for over 10 years. When is the plateau coming? Even lateral moves for me bump my paid up to wha…

I'm about 25 years into my career, and I can definitely say there is a plateau. Yes, my first job switch resulted in almost a whopping 50% increase. Wow! Second job switch was about +25%. Third was +10%. Fast forward a decade, my last two job changes were pretty much even. Maybe 0.1%+ if that. You will get to that point if you don't go into the executive leadership suite.