Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#61

Post by frant-hartm » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:44 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #34

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#62

Post by LtWorf » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:44 PM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #47

FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

> realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere How are you defining "getting nowhere"? At least in the US, the average software developer eventually becomes a millionaire working a pretty cushy job with good benefits. Most people in unions wish they could be exploited like software engineers. Any bar set so high in defining worker exploitation that a software engineer can't clear the hurdle is not a…

> the average software developer eventually becomes a millionaire working a pretty cushy job

You mean their landlord becomes a millionaire doing absolutely no job whatsoever?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#63

Post by throw0101c » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:44 PM UTC

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little?

Actors in the US are in SAG (currently on strike). AFAICT, there is a 'base contract' that most people get ("John Smith as Taxi Driver", "Jane Doe as Waitress #2"), but folks can negotiate above and beyond that ("Tom Cruise as Ethan Hunt").

So there's a floor, but no ceiling.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#64

Post by infecto » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:45 PM UTC

randy5235 wrote: post #32

infecto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

Software engineers, like most workers, are exploited. Do you think that companies pay us well out of the goodness of their hearts? As soon as they can find a way to replace us or pay us less, they will. Currently they have to pay us well and give good benefits, otherwise we will move along to somewhere that will. The more likely scenario, is that they will start replacing the "non 10x" developers with AI soon. This m…

Sounds great to me. That’s how the market works. If a cheaper means of production exists, the industry should utilize it. While I think unlikely right now for it to vanish, it should definitely not be propped up.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#65

Post by pydry » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:45 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #34

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

This idea crops up so frequently that Ive started calling it the "Apparently Tom Cruise Works in a Factory" fallacy.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#66

Post by itsoktocry » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:46 PM UTC

frant-hartm wrote: post #61

itsoktocry wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value.

>If you are on an assembly line and you have 45 s to do your job you either do it, or don't. If you do it fast and wait for 40 s you don't add any value.

Have you worked on an assembly line? I have.

You may not add value by doing it faster, but you certainly cause problems if you do it slower.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#67

Post by RandomLensman » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:46 PM UTC

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Why would a 10x engineer object to improved working conditions for all? Some general hatred for coworkers?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#68

Post by _aavaa_ » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:46 PM UTC

runako wrote: post #38

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years Routinely on this site, there are job postings for "senior" engineering roles for that do not require even 5 years of experience. (By contrast, the recent headlines about UPS drivers making $170k are for drivers with 5+ years of tenure.) There are frequent discussions in this space about whether engineers need college or other pre-employment education. And ma…

> By contrast, the recent headlines about UPS drivers making $170k are for drivers with 5+ years of tenure.

They do not make 170k, that was a puff piece from UPS. That number was total compensation + monetary value of all benefits. Which not the way most people/postings talk about compensation.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#69

Post by throw0101c » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:46 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #51

ownagefool wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a decent take. But taking a view on markets outside of the US and SV/bigtech in particular, those 10x devs aren't usually getting the 2-3x as much, and taking a view of industry in total, profits are runaway but wages are flat and falling, especially when considering inflation. Capital is winning. Perhaps unions are required. But I'm not a union member and likely never will be.

>Capital is winning. When hasn't it won in the western world?

> When hasn't it won in the western world?

In the US, post-WW2 until Reagan got elected.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#70

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 12:46 PM UTC

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

I think we're still in such a good position relative to everyone else in society that it's difficult to see the need for collective bargaining. The skills are in demand and not easily replicated. There are enough tech jobs that the solution to almost any workplace issue is to quit and work somewhere else - often for more pay.

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers

Lots of people will claim to be 10x engineers, few people will claim to be average engineers, even though statistically there are more of the latter. I suspect 80% of engineers think they're in the top 20%. This is bad for solidarity.

(Many of the people likely to face discrimination issues are also at risk of being discriminated against by their union, sadly; it's not an entirely simple solution. Again, poor solidarity.)

> pay proportional to value-add

As we're seeing in the Unity debacle, who gets to capture value is about power rather than simply distributing the total value-add among all those that add value. And power in this case is determined by the "BATNA" for both sides. So long as tech workers are difficult to replace, they already have considerable power.