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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#31

Post by monocasa »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

Unions have a lot of different forms. SAG-AFTRA is in a field with extreme striation for instance. There's still plenty of individual negotiation.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#32

Post by randy5235 »

infecto wrote: post #8
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

Software engineers, like most workers, are exploited. Do you think that companies pay us well out of the goodness of their hearts? As soon as they can find a way to replace us or pay us less, they will. Currently they have to pay us well and give good benefits, otherwise we will move along to somewhere that will. The more likely scenario, is that they will start replacing the "non 10x" developers with AI soon. This may allow the 10x to demand a salary bump, but it also means that they will be cleaning up after AI and shouldering all of the extra work so it probably will be a net loss for most.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#34

Post by itsoktocry »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

>The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers

Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish.

The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#35

Post by ownagefool »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

It's a decent take.

But taking a view on markets outside of the US and SV/bigtech in particular, those 10x devs aren't usually getting the 2-3x as much, and taking a view of industry in total, profits are runaway but wages are flat and falling, especially when considering inflation.

Capital is winning. Perhaps unions are required. But I'm not a union member and likely never will be.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#36

Post by mmmmmbop »

pc86 wrote: post #24
jandrewrogers wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

The average software developer makes $110k/yr, and there's a clear differentiation between having a million dollars (or million s ) in your 20s and 30s compared to retiring with $2-3 million in a 401k that you need to live off of for four decades.

$2-3 million in a 401k by retirement age is still 30-40x the median amount. [0]

[0] https://www.bankrate.com/retirement/average-401k-balance-by-...

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#37

Post by flerchin »

itsoktocry wrote: post #34
alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers Uh, I'm pretty sure the best employees in any field are worth 10x what the worst employees are, whether you're writing code, assembling a car or gutting fish. The economics of labour suggest unions are most valuable where there's a monopsony buyer of labour. Big Tech might fit that bill, especially when we know they colluded to depress salaries.

The best airline pilot lands the plane the same as the worst.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#38

Post by runako »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

> low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years

Routinely on this site, there are job postings for "senior" engineering roles for that do not require even 5 years of experience. (By contrast, the recent headlines about UPS drivers making $170k are for drivers with 5+ years of tenure.) There are frequent discussions in this space about whether engineers need college or other pre-employment education. And many/most "tech" workers are not programmers; they contribute to tech companies in other ways. By and large, our industry as a whole does not place a huge value on long experience. I'm not sure how different tech really is.

> When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power.

How much power did the individual employees at Meta, Google, etc. have when they were being laid off en masse recently?

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#39

Post by duxup »

I know European Union work quite differently than in the US.

My experience with unions in the US like the teachers unions where conditions are still poor, pay is poor, and everything based on seniority rather than skill, you’re stuck with whatever the union negotiates regardless if you’re in the union or not …. I want nothing to do with that.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#40

Post by LtWorf »

alphazard wrote: post #22

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power. Now compa…

A union would protect everyone. And nobody is saying that a senior engineer should get paid the same as a junior.

You live under the impression that better workers will earn more.

In practice the skill that earns higher salary is to pretend to be very competent by using jargon and parroting stuff.

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