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Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

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Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#101

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

isotropy wrote: post #48
Iridescent_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a pond with 1000 fishes, and each year the population of fish doubles, you can remove 501 fishes/year for quite a while. You are clearly in an unsustainable situation, yet it will take time for the population to completely collapse. These limits are in the sense that we cannot stay above forever, not in the we cannot go above ever sense.

Well, only for 8 years. 1000 998 994 986 970 938 874 746 490 ooops

If you harvest after the reproductive cycle though:

1000 1499 2497 4493 ...

it pays to be be patient!

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#102

Post by deprecative »

commandlinefan wrote: post #45
dr_dshiv wrote: post #28

I don’t know why this triggers such skepticism in me. Particularly the section on novel entities. But it feels funny, somehow, and I can’t put my finger on it.

> why this triggers such skepticism I know it does for me - because the people who claim to believe in it the most don't actually live their lives as if they actually believed it. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to do whatever I could reasonably do to create cooler summers and less smog, but I've never heard any actual concrete proposal beyond "vote democrat".

One of the reasons for this is because you're not actually responsible for all that much as a middle class and below person. Yeah, get better fuel efficient cars. Yeah, eat less meat. Yeah, get the most out of what you can when you buy things. But that's not going to do much while corporations are still chugging along. It won't do much while coal and gas are the primary energy production. Sure, use less electricity and get onto renewables as much as you can but the offenders will buy these nonsensical carbon credits and such that cause issue.

The real answer is definitely vote Democratic, one cannot vote democrat as that's not a party in the US. But more than that it gets involved in the political process such that change to our policies are done with climate change in kind. You won't get that from Republicans.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#103

Post by Amezarak »

neltnerb wrote: post #85
apsec112 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of greenhouse gas emissions isn't military, it's for ordinary consumer uses like heating, cooling, driving, and farming meat. No matter what the form of government, lots of people will object very strongly if the solution to climate change is not having central heating, cars, hot water, or beef for dinner.

I think I would like to have safe housing, healthcare, nutritious food, and clean water more than "driving and farming meat" but I guess we all have our priorities. I think that can definitely be sustainable indefinitely, but not so long as companies and cultures are unable to make any kind of real concessions to reality. We should not be using plastic. For basically anything. We should never have started. We should…

I was in full agreement with your comment until...

> We should not be eating nearly as much meat as people do in rich countries.

My peasant ancestors were eating meat every day 500 years ago. You can find different groups of people all over the world that are documented eating absurdly meat-heavy diets historically.

Yes, at least some of us believe meat is very important for human flourishing. In strictly measurable health terms, I am extremely healthy, at least according to current medical science, so I'd rather not change my diet.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#104

Post by amrocha »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #87
apsec112 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of greenhouse gas emissions isn't military, it's for ordinary consumer uses like heating, cooling, driving, and farming meat. No matter what the form of government, lots of people will object very strongly if the solution to climate change is not having central heating, cars, hot water, or beef for dinner.

> majority of greenhouse gas emissions To be extra precise, human initiated greenhouse gas emissions. My understanding is about half of the emissions are natural and there's little we can do about their emission (but can do about their sequestration). Of course that doesn't/shouldn't stop us from addressing the half we can :)

What's the point of being "extra precise" here? Aren't you just giving deniers a talking point?

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#105

Post by swader999 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #89
thriftwy wrote: post #86

This late summer was pretty great around here. We were able to go swimming on 10th of September, whereas the folk wisdom here tells is's a no-no after 2nd of August.

Meanwhile Austin has has the 3rd hottest[1] year on record (so far, we still have ~3.5 months to go). https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/austin/yearly-day... [1]: i used days of 100f and over as a proxy for deciding how hot a year is

That airport station wasn't around for the entire record though. 20's was similar to present. I really don't think you can make any claims either way with just that data.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#106

Post by [deleted] »

vlz wrote: post #94
commandlinefan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why this triggers such skepticism I know it does for me - because the people who claim to believe in it the most don't actually live their lives as if they actually believed it. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to do whatever I could reasonably do to create cooler summers and less smog, but I've never heard any actual concrete proposal beyond "vote democrat".

Ok, I will bite. Concrete proposals for anybody regardless of political view: * Eat half the meat you do or less * Don‘t fly unless absolutely necessary * Get on a plan for renewable electrical energy if possible I know, far from everything in this topic is about consumer choices but a lot really is. If you don‘t want the nanny state to fix your problems you can start at your own doorstep.

[deleted]

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#107

Post by BirAdam »

The one thing I don’t see people take into account is a globally declining birth rate, very rapid declining birth rate. Fewer humans will mean less consumption, and therefore lower demand and less production. This could reverse many effects within the lifetimes of millennials and GenZ.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#108

Post by fragmede »

Amezarak wrote: post #103
neltnerb wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I would like to have safe housing, healthcare, nutritious food, and clean water more than "driving and farming meat" but I guess we all have our priorities. I think that can definitely be sustainable indefinitely, but not so long as companies and cultures are unable to make any kind of real concessions to reality. We should not be using plastic. For basically anything. We should never have started. We should…

I was in full agreement with your comment until... > We should not be eating nearly as much meat as people do in rich countries. My peasant ancestors were eating meat every day 500 years ago. You can find different groups of people all over the world that are documented eating absurdly meat-heavy diets historically. Yes, at least some of us believe meat is very important for human flourishing. In strictly measurable…

Sorry that saving the planet might cause minor inconvenience for you.

There were far fewer factory farms and antibiotics 500 years ago, and 95% fewer people. What was sustainable then isn't sustainable now.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#109

Post by amrocha »

twobitshifter wrote: post #97
vlz wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I will bite. Concrete proposals for anybody regardless of political view: * Eat half the meat you do or less * Don‘t fly unless absolutely necessary * Get on a plan for renewable electrical energy if possible I know, far from everything in this topic is about consumer choices but a lot really is. If you don‘t want the nanny state to fix your problems you can start at your own doorstep.

The flying thing is weird. It’s really that you emit a lot because you traveled so far. It’s more efficient that driving per mile and slightly less efficient than rail (not sure the type) https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2015/09/evolving-climate-... So it should be don’t travel so far and if you have to, take a train and if there’s no train, carpool, but fly rather than drive if you are traveling alone.

Most people aren't driving across the country every time they need to go from the east coast to the west coast. If planes didn't exist these trips would also not exist.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#110

Post by labster »

vlz wrote: post #94
commandlinefan wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why this triggers such skepticism I know it does for me - because the people who claim to believe in it the most don't actually live their lives as if they actually believed it. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to do whatever I could reasonably do to create cooler summers and less smog, but I've never heard any actual concrete proposal beyond "vote democrat".

Ok, I will bite. Concrete proposals for anybody regardless of political view: * Eat half the meat you do or less * Don‘t fly unless absolutely necessary * Get on a plan for renewable electrical energy if possible I know, far from everything in this topic is about consumer choices but a lot really is. If you don‘t want the nanny state to fix your problems you can start at your own doorstep.

It’s expensive to eat less meat. And I done mean in an abstract way about the time it takes to prepare meals, etc.

On a per weight basis, chicken is half the price of peanut butter or cheese at the local grocery store. A whole cooked chicken is even cheaper at Costco. Not everyone can afford to eat less meat and replace it with plant protein.

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