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Credit card debt collection

bitsaboutmoney.com

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Re: Credit card debt collection

#481

Post by eru »

qwytw wrote: post #198
eru wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] that alternative money would be biased towards investment or even less productive activities, such as house price speculation. How is that supposed to work? When the central bank injects money into the economy, they don't earmark it to be only spend in specific ways. Just to forestall one pseudo-explanation: yes, a central bank usually injects money into the economy by buying government bonds. However (a) the…

I guess the idea that directly giving out money to consumers is more beneficial to the economy (e.g. if the government just gives a $1000 check to everyone making under 100k) they are more likely to just spend it on goods and services. If the central bank printed an equivalent amount per capita, more of it would be invested (into both productive and unproductive assets). On the other hand that wouldn't increase consu…

There are multiple problems with this.

First, if you just hand money to individuals, it's very hard to remove that money from the economy later. If the central bank injects money by buying an asset, like a government bond, they can just sell it later to (approximately) remove the same amount of money as they previously injected.

> If the central bank printed an equivalent amount per capita, more of it would be invested (into both productive and unproductive assets).

What makes you think so?

Btw, 'money' doesn't really get invested, at least not on the level of the whole economy. If someone invests money by eg buying stock, that same amount of money is now in the seller's hand.

> On the other hand that wouldn't increase consumer good inflation as much.

And if you have an inflation target, you just print more money, until you hit it.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#482

Post by krapp »

kelnos wrote: post #468
b112 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would this be your default assumption I am not saying it is fair, or that I would make this assumption. However, car insurance is the same way. If some indicator shows correlation with a bad driver, eg age, birth sex, type of car, rates go up! Same thing with unpaid/delinquent debt. It is an indicator. If you have 10 good potential employees to hire, and one has bad debt....

Except no one has presented any evidence that bad debt is an indicator of job performance issues. Car insurance providers have a ton of data that correlates all those factors you mentioned, so for the most part it's reasonably fair for them to set rates based on that. No such data exists when it comes to debt and employment, as far as I can see. Just a bunch of people here arguing back and forth for their personal op…

There isn't any evidence, it isn't actually true. Debt is inescapable in a country where a trip in an ambulance can wipe out a family's entire income. It's just a cultural prejudice born from the American idolization of free markets (which itself is a vestigial expression of European classism and belief in noble divinity), rugged individualism (and a pathological fear of societal bonds) and the Protestant work ethic, mixed with a bit of racism and xenophobia.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#483

Post by eru »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #457
whatshisface wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will be in for a surprise to find out what happens when only the people from a restricted demographic are able to, altruistically, vote. :-)

Is there supposed to be a restricted demographic with a monopoly on identification? The overwhelming majority of Americans have one. Even the large majority of any given minority group does. And if this is a legitimate concern it could be mitigated by, for example, making it free to get a state ID. Address whatever prevents some people from having one, instead of not requiring it. But also, isn't your disaster scenar…

Have you read the rest of the discussion, or at least the comments higher up the chain?

> Is there supposed to be a restricted demographic with a monopoly on identification? [...] mitigated by, for example, making it free to get a state ID.

We were talking about how many ostensibly free resources, rights and welfare are gated behind paperwork and bureaucracy. The discussion was exactly about just making something free is only a small part; and most of the time money isn't even the biggest hurdle for poor people.

I don't have too strong of an opinion on voter id laws. (I grew up in Germany where approximately everyone a government ID, and you need it for voting. And that seems to work ok. And the US system of mostly not requiring voter ID also seems to work ok.) But despite my lack of opinion on whether those laws are good or not, I can understand that just making ID cost $0 misses most of the hurdles in practice.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#484

Post by eru »

pjmlp wrote: post #298
eru wrote: post #36

> I will bet you that, in practice, they simply avoid collecting against anyone who demonstrates ability and financial resources to enforce their rights. This is one for the history books of borked equilibriums. We devoted substantial efforts to pro-consumer legislation to address abuse of (mostly) poor people. We gated redress behind labor that is abundantly available in the professional managerial class and scarce…

> So all in all, Germany still has homeless people, despite welfare programs generous enough in principle that no one needs to be homeless. One of the reasons is that for being part of those programs, the people have to want to be re-integrated, leave out any kind of drugs that there were using, take part in employment trainings,... and not everyone is keen in going through that and rather stay on the streets.

Agreed.

I would formulate it slightly more cynically: to be part of many programs you have to go through the right motions so that the civil servant in charge can tick the box that says 'wants to be re-integrated' etc.

If you are literate enough with bureaucracy and paperwork, that's not too much of a hassle; and they can't really look into your heart and see that you'd really rather sit at home, collect welfare and play computer games, compared to working a low paying, entry-level job.

But the skills that make this dissembling easy are also the same skills that make holding down many kinds of job easy. Especially low level, white collar jobs. Conversely, the people who can't get nor keep a job or also likely to lack these skills and preferences for playing the bureaucracy.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#485

Post by eru »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #206
eru wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore has only recently become affluent, mostly thanks to hard work by the locals, but also partially thanks to policies that did not discourage people from putting in that hard work. I'm not sure what you mean by monocultural? Singapore is famously multicultural. Singapore is very open to foreigners. Almost no one's family has been here for longer than three or four generations. I'm not sure where you get xenoph…

> To call them 'borderline fascist' you'd need a rather torturous definition of fascism (or a generous definition of borderline). Does hanging people arrested with small enough amounts of drugs that you'd get a relatively minor punishment in the U.S. not at least toe the borderline of fascism?

> Does hanging people arrested with small enough amounts of drugs that you'd get a relatively minor punishment in the U.S. not at least toe the borderline of fascism?

No. Why?

Singapore goes up to the death penalty for trading in drugs. Consumers of drugs face punishment, but not the death penalty.

In any case, harsh punishment does not make anything fascist (nor does comparatively lax punishment make something not fascist).

Eg the US is not fascist, despite them handing out harsher sentences for eg drug offenses than other parts of the world (or even the US itself at different points in time).

(Just to be clear: I like living in my adopted home of Singapore. I disagree with their drug policies, and think drugs in general even 'hard' ones should mostly be taxed, not banned. But I don't harsh punishments for some behaviour is a sign of fascism. Especially if the laws are clear and knowable, and there's a scrupulous legal system that predictably enforces these laws for all without prejudice.)

Re: Credit card debt collection

#486

Post by eru »

pjc50 wrote: post #223
rsynnott wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to complain about with Singapore, but _monocultural_, really?

I think they're using this to mean "doesn't have a visible ethnically different underclass". Such a thing would never be allowed to be visible in Singapore.

Yes. Though admittedly the different ethnicities do have quite different average incomes and that is fairly well known.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#487

Post by dragonwriter »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #206
eru wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Singapore has only recently become affluent, mostly thanks to hard work by the locals, but also partially thanks to policies that did not discourage people from putting in that hard work. I'm not sure what you mean by monocultural? Singapore is famously multicultural. Singapore is very open to foreigners. Almost no one's family has been here for longer than three or four generations. I'm not sure where you get xenoph…

> To call them 'borderline fascist' you'd need a rather torturous definition of fascism (or a generous definition of borderline). Does hanging people arrested with small enough amounts of drugs that you'd get a relatively minor punishment in the U.S. not at least toe the borderline of fascism?

> Does hanging people arrested with small enough amounts of drugs that you'd get a relatively minor punishment in the U.S. not at least toe the borderline of fascism?

No.

Fascism, of course, tends to incorporate harsh punishments for (at least some) criminals, but that's neither central to fascism nor is it sufficient for fascism, you don't get anywhere near the borderline of fascism just with ahesh criminal punishments forbthings that are widely criminalized in liberal regimes.

It may be bad, but not all bad things are fascist.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#488

Post by me-vs-cat »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #429
DoubleGlazing wrote: post #315

There was a case a few year back around the time of the 2008 recession where a man in debt used the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act to earn a decent living from their aggressive/dishonest practices. I did try Googling for the story, but I could find it. His process was to let them lie to him - he even encouraged it, all while he was recording the call. After the call ended he'd launch a legal claim for compensatio…

Yeah, I wish we had one-party recording rules. I had a bunch of idiotic debt collectors after me in dealing with my mother's estate. (*None* of them listened to the simple instruction that it's an estate issue, file with such-and-such court. The clock ran out, they all ended up with $0.) Rare was it a call that didn't violate the FDCPA. Unfortunately, I live in a state that's all-party with regards to phone calls eve…

Tell them the call is being recorded. They can choose to participate or hang up.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#489

Post by [deleted] »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #477
vikingerik wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a family member who did something similar - perfect credit and defaulted on purpose. On a rental property, he was underwater on the mortgage at the time of the 2008 crash, so he simply stopped paying and let the bank foreclose and came out ahead that way. Trashed his credit rating but he never had any need for it, he had enough to buy his own house and car outright.

> On a rental property, he was underwater on the mortgage at the time of the 2008 crash What I don't understand is why people worried so much about being underwater. As long as you kept making payments, couldn't you ride it out and still own the house as the market recovers? > Trashed his credit rating but he never had any need for it, he had enough to buy his own house and car outright. This feels like it should be…

[deleted]

Re: Credit card debt collection

#490

Post by me-vs-cat »

kelnos wrote: post #458
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not true? Do you have evidence refuting the premise that people with bad credit are more likely to skim cash from the till?

I think the burden of proof is in the other direction: if someone is going to use some sort of signal or test to determine if someone is eligible for employment, it is on them to present evidence that the signal/test actually accomplishes the objective they expect it to. In California, it is illegal to use a credit report in employment decisions (unless the position is in finance/accounting). Clearly lawmakers have d…

Do you think those employers want to turn away qualified people and keep the positions vacant?
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