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Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

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Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#61

Post by toss1 »

analognoise wrote: post #58
myshpa wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the food web One major contributor to the overshoot is our current agricultural practices, with animal agriculture being a primary offender. It's responsible for a significant amount of greenhouse gases, it's a leading driver of biodiversity loss and deforestation, and it contributes to soil degradation and water pollution. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World…

Humanity would rather go to war to thin our numbers than give up eating meat. The only viable method is lab grown meat that tastes exactly the same, same texture, and is cheaper. That's it. People have real stuff in their lives - they're not worried about planetary survival in 100 years, they're worried about next months rent, etc.

Perhaps note that only 12% of Americans eat 50% of the beef. That group is men between 50-66 years old.

The remaining half is spread among the other 88%. Convince that 12%, or let them age out, and half the problem goes away.

[0] https://phys.org/news/2023-08-mere-americans-nation-beef-sig...

Edit: Fixed link — Thx myshpa! (still looks truncated, but seems to work now)

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#62

Post by autoexec »

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #50
haltist wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's climate patterns are already changing but the state has managed to deal with the problems and will probably continue to do so. Texas on the other hand is starting to see problems with their electricity grid during summers and it's going to keep getting worse as temperatures continue to rise.

My man, this comment is so wildly antiscience. I don’t know where to begin. I’m not sure if it would be with forest management, or the complexity and reasons that cut Texas has its own grid, separated from everyone else. I’m not sure I would say either directly applicable to this topic.

Texas throwing a tantrum and refusing to have their power grid under federal regulation will become increasingly applicable to the topic since the changes we're causing to our planet and its climate will put even more strain on their weak and inflexible power grid. People in texas are already dying from the heat in the summer and freezing to death in the winter and it's only going to get worse.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#63

Post by apsec112 »

Liquix wrote: post #20

> Clearly, it is in humanity's best interest to... Herein lies the problem. What happens to the environment is not governed by "humanity's best interest", it's governed by whomever has the most power and the biggest stick. These entities act in their own best interest. To the Chinese government, more factories = more money = more power = good. To the US government, more military equipment = more power = good. At the…

The vast majority of greenhouse gas emissions isn't military, it's for ordinary consumer uses like heating, cooling, driving, and farming meat. No matter what the form of government, lots of people will object very strongly if the solution to climate change is not having central heating, cars, hot water, or beef for dinner.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#64

Post by mistrial9 »

analognoise wrote: post #58
myshpa wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the food web One major contributor to the overshoot is our current agricultural practices, with animal agriculture being a primary offender. It's responsible for a significant amount of greenhouse gases, it's a leading driver of biodiversity loss and deforestation, and it contributes to soil degradation and water pollution. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World…

Humanity would rather go to war to thin our numbers than give up eating meat. The only viable method is lab grown meat that tastes exactly the same, same texture, and is cheaper. That's it. People have real stuff in their lives - they're not worried about planetary survival in 100 years, they're worried about next months rent, etc.

Hindus and Buddhists have developed vegetarian diets alongside architectural and intellectual accomplishments, for more than a thousand years.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#65

Post by haltist »

autoexec wrote: post #55
haltist wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's climate patterns are already changing but the state has managed to deal with the problems and will probably continue to do so. Texas on the other hand is starting to see problems with their electricity grid during summers and it's going to keep getting worse as temperatures continue to rise.

California's "dealing with the problems" seems like a lot of shortsighted non-sustainable policy. Parts of CA are burning right now. At this point they've been bragging about maybe not having to go back to rolling blackouts. Reliably providing even the most basic services like water and power is such an astonishingly low bar that only in the poorest developing nations should that even be in question yet here we are.…

What states do you think will manage to deal with climate change if not California?

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#66

Post by myshpa »

analognoise wrote: post #58
myshpa wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the food web One major contributor to the overshoot is our current agricultural practices, with animal agriculture being a primary offender. It's responsible for a significant amount of greenhouse gases, it's a leading driver of biodiversity loss and deforestation, and it contributes to soil degradation and water pollution. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World…

Humanity would rather go to war to thin our numbers than give up eating meat. The only viable method is lab grown meat that tastes exactly the same, same texture, and is cheaper. That's it. People have real stuff in their lives - they're not worried about planetary survival in 100 years, they're worried about next months rent, etc.

> Humanity would rather go to war to thin our numbers than give up eating meat

We're using up resources at a pace that outstrips Earth's ability to replenish them. For instance, we're already consuming 1.7 times the Earth's available resources.

https://www.overshootday.org/

If everyone were to adopt a diet similar to the American diet, we would require more than five Earths to sustain it.

https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability...

> The only viable method is lab grown meat

Achieving the required scale and price point may take decades, potentially leading to the collapse of biodiversity long before that occurs.

> that tastes exactly the same, same texture, and is cheaper

Is our love for the taste really worth destroying the planet?

What will we say to our grandchildren? "Sorry, I couldn't give up those burgers. Now, go play in a desert."

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/uk-news/mea...

Veggie sausages and burgers up to ten times better for environment than meat, study finds

> they're worried about next months rent

Vegan diets are typically the most economical choice, even in first-world countries. The affordability of animal products is primarily a result of significant subsidies, without factoring in the negative externalities.

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-chea...

Sustainable eating is cheaper and healthier - Oxford study

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#67

Post by jgraham »

analognoise wrote: post #58
myshpa wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the food web One major contributor to the overshoot is our current agricultural practices, with animal agriculture being a primary offender. It's responsible for a significant amount of greenhouse gases, it's a leading driver of biodiversity loss and deforestation, and it contributes to soil degradation and water pollution. https://ourworldindata.org/land-use https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/10/World…

Humanity would rather go to war to thin our numbers than give up eating meat. The only viable method is lab grown meat that tastes exactly the same, same texture, and is cheaper. That's it. People have real stuff in their lives - they're not worried about planetary survival in 100 years, they're worried about next months rent, etc.

> The only viable method is lab grown meat

I suspect it's true that the only way to substantially cut animal-based protein consumption at scale is some technological alternative that offers a comparable culinary experience but with a lower cost (and lower impact). Although as another poster notes, it's also true that — like many resource consumption issues — the distribution isn't flat, but shows the majority of consumption coming from a relatively small fraction of the population.

However, what I wanted to point out is that "lab grown meat" is not the only possibility in this general area. Precision fermentation of proteins (e.g. https://gfi.org/science/the-science-of-fermentation/) is another approach that seems to have potential. Although I note that I don't have a specific horse in this race, and would be delighted to see anything that can reduce the overall environmental impact of food production at a global scale take off.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#68

Post by autoexec »

elihu wrote: post #41
Acssux wrote: post #5

How is something critical if it has been transgressed and we are still alive? Or on the very first moment every single one is past we all suddenly die?

The Titanic didn't sink the moment it hit the iceberg, it took a little over two and a half hours. During a significant portion of that time it wasn't all that obvious that anything was seriously wrong. The ship was listing slightly to one side and the engines were off. The passengers weren't all affected equally either. A lot of first-class passengers made it onto lifeboats, whereas third class passengers mostly did…

We don't have life boats (yet) but I do wonder if some part of the massive increase in wealth disparity we've seen is due to uncertainty about the future, or if the reluctance to take meaningful action to slow/reverse the impacts we've had on the earth is because it's already clear that our time is running out and there's nothing that can be done to stop it.

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#69

Post by ricardobeat »

isotropy wrote: post #48
Iridescent_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a pond with 1000 fishes, and each year the population of fish doubles, you can remove 501 fishes/year for quite a while. You are clearly in an unsustainable situation, yet it will take time for the population to completely collapse. These limits are in the sense that we cannot stay above forever, not in the we cannot go above ever sense.

Well, only for 8 years. 1000 998 994 986 970 938 874 746 490 ooops

A very insightful misguided comment, shows how easy it can be to disturb a system in equilibrium with very minor changes (1 extra fish).

Re: Earth beyond six of nine planetary boundaries

#70

Post by [deleted] »

toss1 wrote: post #61
analognoise wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humanity would rather go to war to thin our numbers than give up eating meat. The only viable method is lab grown meat that tastes exactly the same, same texture, and is cheaper. That's it. People have real stuff in their lives - they're not worried about planetary survival in 100 years, they're worried about next months rent, etc.

Perhaps note that only 12% of Americans eat 50% of the beef. That group is men between 50-66 years old. The remaining half is spread among the other 88%. Convince that 12%, or let them age out, and half the problem goes away. [0] https://phys.org/news/2023-08-mere-americans-nation-beef-sig... Edit: Fixed link — Thx myshpa! (still looks truncated, but seems to work now)

[deleted]
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