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Credit card debt collection

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Re: Credit card debt collection

#361

Post by Workaccount2 »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #353
Workaccount2 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But debt and interest are both sound concepts, and both are critical towards building an advanced society. Being able to borrow money from the future is enormously powerful.

All forms of exploitation are incredibly valuable for those with the power to benefit from them.

...but it's not exploitation. Your head is thinking about bad debt, but bad debt is only a tiny fraction of total debt. It certainly makes for excellent highly memorable emotionally charged stories, which is why we are here, but the fact of that matter is that overwhelming majority of debt is paid off and bears actual fruit.

Even debt like student loans, which gets almost universally panned, is still good debt. The ROI on a collage education is ~1000% (amount borrowed/paid off vs. increased lifetime earnings). On paper your are still dumb to not take out student loans to get a degree.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#362

Post by w3ll_w3ll_w3ll »

avar wrote: post #294
worklaptopacct wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are debit cards really not accepted online? I thought that save for some very specific applications, all Visa or MasterCard branded cards should work online. Never got a Visa refused, and it's a Visa Debit. I know that some places like Germany informally refer to any Visa or Mastercard as a "credit card", in contrast to true(?) debit systems such as Maestro or V-Pay. So if a place says "No credit cards", it means tha…

It differs by banks and countries, but e.g. my Dutch debit card only has an IBAN number on it, so anything set up to accept credit card numbers won't accept it. Almost every online web shop here will accept debit cards, but it's through a Dutch specific payment mechanism (iDEAL).

That's because in the Netherlands most banks used Maestro (owned by Mastercard) and Vpay (owned by Visa) as international debit circuit. The acceptance for Maestro and Vpay online is much lower than "normal" Mastercard Debit and Visa Debit. Acceptance for Mastercard Debit and Visa Debit is practically the same online as Mastercard Credit and Visa Credit.

Maestro is being sunset by Mastercard and no new card can be issued. Only Mastercard Debit. So the problem with the fact that Dutch debit cards (Maestro) are not accepted online will be solved in a couple of years.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#363

Post by Interloper2 »

alexis2b wrote: post #263
bettercallsalad wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am far from religious, but one thing most religious traditions have common is how they ban usury/interest which would make much of global finance we have today “haram”. You can see the reverse effect too not only at an individual but collective level. Once the religious ethos disappears from a sect, widespread adoption of debt becomes the norm.

There is also in the Bible the notion of a 50 years periodic Jubilee[1] when all debts would be canceled and the system effectively resets. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

ha! It may be in the Bible, but Jubilee was never celebrated, not even once.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#364

Post by giraffe_lady »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #361
giraffe_lady wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All forms of exploitation are incredibly valuable for those with the power to benefit from them.

...but it's not exploitation. Your head is thinking about bad debt, but bad debt is only a tiny fraction of total debt. It certainly makes for excellent highly memorable emotionally charged stories, which is why we are here, but the fact of that matter is that overwhelming majority of debt is paid off and bears actual fruit. Even debt like student loans, which gets almost universally panned, is still good debt. The R…

No I was pointing out that simply because something is beneficial for some people doesn't mean we should want it to exist, which is what I read your comment as saying. Please don't tell me what I am thinking.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#365

Post by vikingerik »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #234
b112 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor credit can cost you dearly. Higher rates on everything, and a .5% difference in a mortgate rate is massive. It's a way to burn your credit for years, at great personal cost, so not likely that people will take the out without desperation.

Back in the early '10s I was reading a report from a guy who had stellar credit and the card limits to go with them. He ran up about $100,000 of debt on his cards on purpose and stopped making payments. He then approached his bank to settle the debt and negotiated a 60% discount. The account was marked "paid by customer" so it never appeared on his on his credit report as a default. He did get dinged for missing paym…

I have a family member who did something similar - perfect credit and defaulted on purpose. On a rental property, he was underwater on the mortgage at the time of the 2008 crash, so he simply stopped paying and let the bank foreclose and came out ahead that way. Trashed his credit rating but he never had any need for it, he had enough to buy his own house and car outright.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#366

Post by PeterisP »

dfxm12 wrote: post #314
beaviskhan wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is zero chance that I, a US resident, will ever use debit cards for anything. The reason is that in the event of a fraudulent charge (which still happens surprisingly often, given that chips were supposed to put an end to that): - With a debit card, I am out $X of my own money, until the bank can be bothered to agree that the charge is fraudulent and refund my money, which can take weeks or months, if at all. G…

There is zero chance that I, a US resident, will ever use debit cards for anything. Does being a US resident have any meaning here? I mean, does the rest of the world not secure credit card payments, or does the rest of the world secure debit card payments like the US secures credit card payment?

Yes, the residence matters - in USA (and some other countries, I think at least UK as well) there are major legal differences between debit cards and credit cards with respect what the consumer rights and practical protections are for them, and in other countries (like in EU payment laws) debit card payments get all the same or almost the protections as credit card payments.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#367

Post by Workaccount2 »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #364
Workaccount2 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...but it's not exploitation. Your head is thinking about bad debt, but bad debt is only a tiny fraction of total debt. It certainly makes for excellent highly memorable emotionally charged stories, which is why we are here, but the fact of that matter is that overwhelming majority of debt is paid off and bears actual fruit. Even debt like student loans, which gets almost universally panned, is still good debt. The R…

No I was pointing out that simply because something is beneficial for some people doesn't mean we should want it to exist, which is what I read your comment as saying. Please don't tell me what I am thinking.

You're making the argument that cars shouldn't exist because some people die because of them.

Like I said, debt is overwhelmingly useful to the vast majority of people who use it.

We're not gonna ban cars because a handful of highly emotional road tragedies. We're not gonna abolish debt because of a handful of deranged debt collector stories.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#368

Post by specialist »

elteto wrote: post #349
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s not a problem of capitalism, it’s a problem of reality. I'm really not sure about that. > Of course it requires debt relief, things go _wrong_ all the time, that’s just life and how the world works. Yet funnily enough the people on top of all these vast structures sail away from their sinking ships on parachutes of gold (if they're even sinking: a lot of times they just sit and collect vast sums of unearned we…

I think you mistook my comment as a defense of capitalism. Although I do believe a system based on private property and individual freedom is superior to the alternative, I wasn’t making that statement. I was just pointing out something at a much lower level: we need debt relief because we don’t live in a perfect world, things go south and we need for people to be able to move on. That’s it. We could talk about the i…

Yes and: As an anthropologist, Graeber details historical examples of capital, markets, debt, currency, etc.

TLDR: They're all ancient.

Graeber doesn't try to define capitalism much less Capitalism. He cares about social structures and relations, not finance and monetary policy.

But absolutely do not take me as an authority on Graeber or these subjects. He spent decades researching and refining. I'm just relating my noob understanding of his writing.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#369

Post by SoftTalker »

incongruity wrote: post #301
paulsutter wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, the terms of service are much better for credit cards than debit cards, so even folks who pay off their cards every month (for example, airline miles cardholders) prefer credit cards because of superior ToS. The terms on credit cards are expensive for issuers, so debit cards were introduced with terms more favorable to issuers. Even if they improved the terms, consumers would still be hesitant to use them…

It’s so severe that even if they improved the terms, nobody would use them because US debit cards' reputation is tainted. Say what now? “According to the 2019 Federal Reserve Payments Study1, “Debit cards, including both prepaid and non-prepaid, were used almost twice as often as credit cards in 2018, but the value of credit card payments exceeded the value of debit card payments by almost 30%.” And In Visa’s Operati…

You need moderately good credit to get a credit card.

You only need a bank account to get a debit card. The bar is much lower.

And if you're including prepaid cards, those are handed out like candy for promotional purposes, as gifts, etc.

Re: Credit card debt collection

#370

Post by giraffe_lady »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #367
giraffe_lady wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I was pointing out that simply because something is beneficial for some people doesn't mean we should want it to exist, which is what I read your comment as saying. Please don't tell me what I am thinking.

You're making the argument that cars shouldn't exist because some people die because of them. Like I said, debt is overwhelmingly useful to the vast majority of people who use it. We're not gonna ban cars because a handful of highly emotional road tragedies. We're not gonna abolish debt because of a handful of deranged debt collector stories.

If you want to make an argument make one. "Some people like it" isn't a strong one but if that's all you got I guess.

"We're not going to" presupposed the outcome. I don't agree and won't contend it, since you're not willing to say anything that can be refuted. I'm not the author of the future I can't say what we're gonna. But then neither are you.

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