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iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

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Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#171

Post by boxed »

flagrant_taco wrote: post #140
boxed wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proving a link between cancer and one specific environmental factor is the physical impossibility you're looking for. But.. that happens all the time? The link between excessive solar exposure ("tanning") and cancer is extremely well documented.

Even that is a strong correlation though, and a simplified one at that. Context matters even for sun exposure, if solar radiation was a direct cause of cancer you should reliably see consistent skin cancer rates among people with similar complexion and exposure rates. I've seen some really compelling research looking into diet changes that may impact risk of skin cancer, specifically an increase in saturated fats hel…

> if solar radiation was a direct cause of cancer you should reliably see consistent skin cancer rates among people with similar complexion and exposure rates.

...which you do.

> My point is simply that the body is complex, cancer generally develops over years, and trying to narrow down a common link strong enough to claim causation is tricky if not impossible.

That sounds like weasel language to try to muddy the waters to me. If it's tricky or impossible to nail down the effect must be small, and probably not worth caring much about.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#172

Post by mardifoufs »

Varloom wrote: post #45
fh9302 wrote: post #22

Apple has denied those findings. > Apple said it had provided ANFR with multiple Apple and independent third-party lab results proving its compliance with all applicable SAR regulations and standards in the world. https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-disputes-french-fin...

Do you honestly expect that they would admit it and face millions of lawsuits ?

France has a huge "cellular EM waves are bad" movement so I wouldn't trust them about this either. It's weird that they are the only country where these iPhones seem to misbehave.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#173

Post by hedora »

XorNot wrote: post #154
ikekkdcjkfke wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't the point of 2.4 GHz being unregulated because it's used by microwave ovens (citation needed). It interacts strongly with water atleast

To produce thermal heating. The RF radiation fear trades off the word "radiation" and how no one actually knows what that means.

Unshielded microwave ovens definitely cause cancer. The energy penetrates the skin, and some of it plays billiards with the atoms in DNA, genetic transcription machinery, etc.

I can’t find a study because the internet is full of blog spam saying your microwave oven has shielding that keeps emissions to a safe level (of course), and studies looking at microwave radiation exposure near the cell phone limit, not 1000x higher, which is roughly what your microwave does if the shielding is missing or the safety interlock is broken.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#174

Post by agmm »

mwidell wrote: post #87

I love my Apple Watch ultra, because with cellular I can use it as a phone – a very lightweight phone without social media distractions. But I have to say I am a little bit uneasy about having a cellphone strapped to my arm. Someone with physics knowledge please calm me down?

At the present, we don't have enough evidence to be concerned about low-power EM radiation. However, this does not rule out the possibility that in the future, we might find a causal link between that kind of radiation and adverse health outcomes. What we do know at the moment is that this type of radiation can heat tissues. What are the long-term biological consequences of that? We don't really know. My advice: try to minimize your exposure out of caution, but don't get too worried about it.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#175

Post by tanjtanjtanj »

whatwhaaaaat wrote: post #153
tmpX7dMeXU wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess which side is more susceptible to low-quality propaganda.

[flagged]

India and Germany just from the top of my head, I assume there are others.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#176

Post by bemusedthrow75 »

whatwhaaaaat wrote: post #153
tmpX7dMeXU wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess which side is more susceptible to low-quality propaganda.

[flagged]

The UK -- boosters for high risk groups and people over 60 (at the moment): https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/covid-19/covid-19-vaccination/...

France: https://www.thelocal.fr/20230811/france-plans-new-covid-vacc...

Germany -- boosters for high risk groups: https://www.dw.com/en/covid-19-dont-wait-until-autumn-for-a-...

The Netherlands: https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/dutch-...

Denmark: https://www.thelocal.dk/20230609/denmark-to-offer-covid-and-...

Norway: https://www.fhi.no/en/id/corona/coronavirus-immunisation-pro...

So yes, boosters are being rolled out for older people and at-risk groups, all over the place.

I pretty much found these just by googling: covid booster 2023

If/when you are an eligible age, will you get your health authority's recommended annual/winter flu jab? (e.g. the multivalent vacine offered to all eligible older adults in the UK).

If not, why not? If yes, why not Covid?

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#177

Post by paulmd »

mort96 wrote: post #130
paulmd wrote: post #100

Worth noting that this is due to the French regulators applying the same SAR absorption standard as the rest of the EU but at a closer distance. Obviously radiation follows the inverse square law so this means you absorb more radiation in France ;) Even despite this reduced allowable emission the iPhone is barely out of compliance, they will need to reduce power less than 10% or simply get another few millimeters far…

Is this true? The article claims that the European (EU?) regulations are 4W/kg at 0mm and 2W/kg at 5mm distance. Is the article incorrect in this? Do you have a reference to the actual SAR regulations?

Sounds like the article is incorrect. The relevant standard for EU-wide regulations is EN 50566:2013, which allows manufacturers to choose the separation with up to 25mm (most vendors standardized on 15mm because this is the maximum separation allowed under the FCC standard).

The french disagree with this standard and specify the limits at 0mm and 5mm separation, which obviously increases absorption. However, they did not increase the absorption limits accordingly.

Thus, actually most phones are out of compliance with the new french regulations (ANFR describes it as "a large proportion of phones" as being out of compliance, sounds like de-facto it's almost all). Since the EU is more of an advisory body and allows individual countries to set such limits individually, the EU has issued an application restriction which prohibits their usage in France (presumably until manufacturers patch TX power limits downwards as Apple will most likely do).

I guess you can describe that as an "EU limit" since it's an application restriction approved by the EU, but it's not the same limit as applies in the rest of the EU, it's a local application restriction issued at the request of french regulatory bodies applicable only in france.

https://www.anses.fr/en/content/exposure-mobile-telephones-c...

https://ehtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/ANFR-Data-PDF-SAR-Eur...

https://www.anfr.fr/en/anfr/news/all-news/detail-of-the-news...

I can get behind removing the ambiguity of manufacturer-chosen testing distances and officially specifying this at 15mm. Or if you think that's unrealistic then 5mm and 0mm also make sense, but if you move the emitter closer you're gonna get a stronger signal and the SAR threshold should be adjusted accordingly. Which the french didn't do, because they're low-key catering to the "phones cause cancer" wackos here for political play.

But this isn't just an apple thing and there will be a patch reducing your signal strength for android too, most likely. iphones just get lots of media play.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#178

Post by kube-system »

hedora wrote: post #173
XorNot wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To produce thermal heating. The RF radiation fear trades off the word "radiation" and how no one actually knows what that means.

Unshielded microwave ovens definitely cause cancer. The energy penetrates the skin, and some of it plays billiards with the atoms in DNA, genetic transcription machinery, etc. I can’t find a study because the internet is full of blog spam saying your microwave oven has shielding that keeps emissions to a safe level (of course), and studies looking at microwave radiation exposure near the cell phone limit, not 1000x h…

Ionizing radiation damages DNA. But microwaves do not emit any ionizing radiation. For a microwave to damage your DNA it would have to burn your flesh. Then you wouldn't be worried about cancer, you'd be worried that you just microwaved your arm until it started burning.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#179

Post by kube-system »

garyfirestorm wrote: post #123
xoa wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Someone with physics knowledge please calm me down? All radio is non-ionizing EM, far lower frequency then visible light, thermal, etc. UV, Xrays, and gamma rays are in the opposite direction, higher frequency. Radio cannot do anything except minor amounts of heating, and at milliwatts of transmission power and inverse square law that's REALLY minor amounts of heating. There is no link to any sort of health effects…

Sun! It emits far more radiation than anything else and we don’t care about walking in sunlight.

And the sun emits ionizing radiation, which radio devices do not. And ionizing radiation is known to damage DNA and cause cancer.

Re: iPhone 12 withdrawn from French market for non-compliance with EU regulation

#180

Post by mort96 »

sangnoir wrote: post #149
lagrange77 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought this whole EM radiation fear was bogus. How does it even interact with the body? There are obviously no neutrons flying around..

What's the link between EM emissions and neutrons?

My guess is that "There are no neutrons flying around" is a flippant way to say it's not ionizing radiation, since the common ionizing radiation is made up of alpha particles, beta particles (electrons), neutrons or very high frequency photons.

Imagine it says "It's not like there are high speed neutrons flying around".

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