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You're barely managing

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Re: You're barely managing

#91

Post by ericmcer »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #28
thaumaturgy wrote: post #5

> How many managers do you know who studied to be managers of people? > I mean more than a couple of one-day courses; I mean someone who studied to be a manager the way someone studied to be a software engineer or doctor. > I personally don’t know anyone, and while those degrees definitely exist, it’s got me wondering: of the total managers in the world, how many of them have those qualifications? Is it even 1%? ...…

management is a lifetime of experience and they themselves often don't entirely understand what they're doing. My favorite manager of all time just left me alone and believed everything I told him when communicating back to the business. It was never clear to me if that was on purpose (he trusted me) or if he was just a lazy ass. And I don't care, I loved working for that man. But if you were to ask him to lay out wh…

Managers who are well studied in management techniques are often unbearable to me.

They lack the acting ability to pass off something they read as their genuine response, so it feels artificial and further divides us. It's like being charismatic. Some people have it naturally, others can develop it over time with real experience, but it isn't something you can pick up in a course.

Re: You're barely managing

#92

Post by angarg12 »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #36
angarg12 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of literature in management (definitely in the tech sector) is essentially a long form opinion of a single person. I personally only started to take more seriously the writing of people who a) have been managing for a long while successfully, and b) regularly sync up with other managers so that their pieces aren't a sample size of 1.

Because I apparently have an infinite appetite for masochism: do you have any recommendations for authors you've read and liked?

Will Larson [1] is a favourite of mine. Some parts os his writing are still "one person's opinion" but

a) has credentials to back up his opinions

b) often he triangulates with other people to give more weight to his arguments. For example for Staff Engineer he did interviews with many Staff+ ICs

c) is very humble and open about what he doesn't know or what is "the best of my knowledge"

Overall I give him more credit than any internet rando.

[1] https://lethain.com/

Re: You're barely managing

#93

Post by angarg12 »

alostpuppy wrote: post #52
angarg12 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of literature in management (definitely in the tech sector) is essentially a long form opinion of a single person. I personally only started to take more seriously the writing of people who a) have been managing for a long while successfully, and b) regularly sync up with other managers so that their pieces aren't a sample size of 1.

Can you give us some links to writings you found particularly inspiring?

Longer reply above, but I really like https://lethain.com/

Re: You're barely managing

#94

Post by caminante »

ulnarkressty wrote: post #83
ilc wrote: post #57

My $0.02 as an ex Team Lead, and I've been offered management a few times. 1. Leadership is a taught skill. Most people DO NOT realize this. People aren't natural born leaders. You learn by learning the principles of leadership, and practicing them day in and day out. Alas, not everyone leads the same way. We all have our own tricks and style. 2. Communications Skills: This is also a taught skill. Yes, we all have ou…

Can you please share how you learned leadership, communication, negotiation etc. and how you measured your effectiveness as a manager? This thread is mostly just like these management books - collections of anecdotes disguised as a training manual. Which is incredibly frustrating since most of them can be applied in that particular situation with those particular people. Are there really no principles that can raise…

I recommend high output management by Andy Grove.

It's widely praised and cited on HN when comments such as yours (rightfully) come up.

Re: You're barely managing

#95

Post by zingababba »

pesfandiar wrote: post #72
zingababba wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had the misfortune on being on a highly technical team where a thoroughly business minded manager was hired. Most of the team including myself was gone within 6 months. Absolute disaster.

But did the assembly line become more efficient?

Nah, turned to hell. I still talk with the remaining team members.

Re: You're barely managing

#96

Post by photonthug »

cafard wrote: post #79
thaumaturgy wrote: post #5

> How many managers do you know who studied to be managers of people? > I mean more than a couple of one-day courses; I mean someone who studied to be a manager the way someone studied to be a software engineer or doctor. > I personally don’t know anyone, and while those degrees definitely exist, it’s got me wondering: of the total managers in the world, how many of them have those qualifications? Is it even 1%? ...…

Doesn't everyone who goes through a military academy study to be a manager of people? (Or for that matter OCS or NCO school, if for a shorter time.)

No direct experience with the military or working with vets, but for sure they have a grand old tradition of being ruthlessly practical, and in a lot of ways practically invented things like KISS and data-driven decision making. Probably dealing with life/death has a tendency to focus the wandering individual mind and even the meandering motivations of a vast bureaucracy. Someone else can likely provide better references, but for just one random example, BLUF ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication) ) is something I wish more managers were aware of.

Re: You're barely managing

#97

Post by antod »

feoren wrote: post #86
gonzo41 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably loved you because you left him alone. You loved him because you're a self starter and didn't want to deal with bullshit and he probably was checked out of life and just wanted to coast. The business you worked for benefited from your goal alignment. Sometimes you have to take non synchronous goals and mash them through a form to press out a result. The middle manager is there drive results, end of story.…

> Just look how finance people manage each other. Isn't finance in general a dystopian hellscape?

As a manager in a startup recently acquired by a large finance company - yes.

Re: You're barely managing

#98

Post by ronsoak »

tiffanyg wrote: post #29

Fluff comment, but it's slightly amusing to me that this piece on management* was posted by someone using the name of a certain milkman** in Pratchett's "Thief of Time". To quote Pratchett directly: "Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized." :) * Directing / organizing / etc. the activities of groups, efforts, etc. towards specific (…

Thank you for getting the reference, most people don't!

Re: You're barely managing

#99

Post by danparsonson »

solumos wrote: post #35

> 1. Bad managers are the cause of a lot of employee unhappiness. > 2. Bad managers are the cause of a lot of workplace failure, i.e., late projects, subpar products, and unmet goals. > 3. Managers are one of the most under-supported cohorts of employees on the planet. Agree on the first two, but for #3: managers are perhaps the most OVER-supported cohorts of employees on the planet. Much of the time, simply by being…

Granting someone excessive leeway is not the same as supporting their personal development - it's pretty much antithetical to that.

I mostly agree with what you're saying but I don't think it contradicts the original article.

Re: You're barely managing

#100

Post by ilc »

ulnarkressty wrote: post #83
ilc wrote: post #57

My $0.02 as an ex Team Lead, and I've been offered management a few times. 1. Leadership is a taught skill. Most people DO NOT realize this. People aren't natural born leaders. You learn by learning the principles of leadership, and practicing them day in and day out. Alas, not everyone leads the same way. We all have our own tricks and style. 2. Communications Skills: This is also a taught skill. Yes, we all have ou…

Can you please share how you learned leadership, communication, negotiation etc. and how you measured your effectiveness as a manager? This thread is mostly just like these management books - collections of anecdotes disguised as a training manual. Which is incredibly frustrating since most of them can be applied in that particular situation with those particular people. Are there really no principles that can raise…

Well, you ask a hard question.

I learned my basics of leadership in Alpha Phi Omega - National Service Fraternity (also met my wife who is also a brother.)

Communication, Alpha Phi Omega, and also a course from Harvard's Negotiation Team, focused on "Difficult Conversations"

Negotiations, a course from Harvard's Negotiation Team, focused on "Getting to Yes".

I typed out a huge answer to your question, but I realized it'd be better as a discussion. If you want to discuss leadership, I'd be glad to, we'll figure out a way even as anon internet strangers ;).

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