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Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

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Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#471
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a 'non-traditional' student (25) and my fellow students are normal undergraduate age (19). Half are having a hard time with learning some of the CAD software because they lack the experience with full featured Desktop OS's like Windows/Linux/Mac. It's surprising how fast generational change occurs

I've heard the same from university staff. The last few years many new students are having problems with the simplest stuff like uploading their course work into whatever educational platform the university is using because they have no grasp of the concept of a file.

Tell the university that they need to add a computer course to the required incoming freshman classes. Things like how to use the various systems the university supports. This was my experience at CSU, and very little of it was explained to me, other than a few quick mentions in the 1-hour library course (this is how you do this and that and the other thing on library systems. The school offers Citrix and access to network drive away from school. Ask someone about that if you care. This is how you access online periodicals.)

- Eduroam is available at many other schools if you happen to be there, but I never managed to actually sign in, because CSU never told me how, neither did UCLA when I visited - how to access the network drive, both on- and off- campus (sftp supported without a VPN, smb with). This was mentioned in a single 1 hour lecture at the library on how to use library systems. Access from the locked down public computers at the library without student logins was not mentioned (just mounting a network drive, but instructions previously given implied that the VPN was necessary if you weren't logged into your account on the network) - there were labs running windows 10, windows 7/8 (windows 10 came out while I was there), Fedora (network drive had to be connected manually), and even a lab full of Sparcs that I didn't use much (they were quite slow), the library computers, etc. There were also heavily locked down public computers in other areas that only allowed access to the browser, and a lab full of thin clients that offered no permanent storage for even temporary use (working with a local file? Better have a flash drive, or you're stuck with network drive latency) - Citrix allowed access to a suite of software including Adobe CS6 iirc as well as Office and other software; this worked from anywhere on-campus, but the software offering off-campus was different. This got a passing mention in the library lecture, mainly that this is available. Classes that actually made use of this software didn't mention it being available off campus at all. - some software was only available in private labs (acceptable not to mention this), but some was only available in certain buildings/departments and some was only available on Citrix. Fonts could not be installed anywhere, but windows offers a simple (if little-known) method to register a font for the current session, and this worked for using custom fonts in Adobe and other applications, both in Citrix and on lab computers. - there was a single cafe where students were _allowed_ (I think?) to plug laptops into the network (not to say people didn't do it elsewhere, but here the network and plug sockets were above the counter in the public seating area, and nobody would stop you from doing so) - part way through, I think there was a new network drive added, for a while there were multiple ways to access the network drive. - the network drive was (a very little bit) more than just a network drive; it allowed ssh access to edit files with pico; when I first started, it also hosted files for student websites; eventually the websites went away, but the ssh access never did. It was clearly an intentionally open SSH server, and was open outside the school as well; it had a (iirc pre-login) banner with some rules. - msdnaa was retired in favor of dreamspark, and free copies of office were phased out in favor of discounted 365 subscriptions when I was about halfway through. There was still tons of free software available, and none of it was ever mentioned until a cs course (the cs department had their own dreamspark subscription with an expanded offering, but there was software available to everyone as well, including Windows and office...which was available separately in the school/CS/business subscriptions)

When I was in high school (middle school?), I had a computer literacy class where a good quarter of the semester was teaching students how to organize their files. The teacher had a messy filesystem that was unzipped onto each computer, and during the course of a week or so, students were expected to rename files and the few directories and organize the files in a way that made sense. Mostly the files were empty iirc, but I think there were a few with similar names and identical content that could be deleted. I remember thinking at the time that this was the best thing I'd ever seen, having anyway seen the number of files left saved on desktop and my documents on the few machines at the school that allowed you to do so.

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. Its like you ordering sushi and the restaurant gives you shoes because they know better.

More like, they bring the sushi, but also a pair of shoes. And when you throw the shoes on the floor because they are not what you ordered, they come back over and put them back on the table. On iOS they only sell shoes, you don't go there if you want sushi. (and too bad if you find yourself locked into the apple ecosystem / restaurant, because shoes is all they have.)

Well, and when you use chopsticks to pick up the sushi and put it in your mouth, they come over, slap the sushi off your chopsticks, slap the shoes onto your chopsticks and stand there, patiently watching and waiting for you to start chewing.

And so you bring your own chopsticks so they won't be allowed to touch them, since they're not the chopsticks that the store provides, and they tape your hands to the table and try to force-feed you the shoes with their chopsticks, so you have to unstick your hands from the table, re-grab your own chopsticks, and fend your waiter off with one hand so you can pick up the sushi you want and eat it.

Only, the store is in your house. It's at your job, it's everywhere you go to eat and you can only get away from it by locking your access to chopsticks away in your own home. (Running linux on a personal computer and not having easy access to a lot of convenient software)

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it more acceptable because it's a combination of two things? Lots of objectionable outcomes are a combination of multiple factors!

Because I accept both things on their own, and I accept that the combination of them follows naturally. Then I must (reluctantly) accept unfortunate outcome of the combination. I wouldn't say it's reasonable that browsers could never suggest they be made default, and I don't think it's reasonable that you can't have some OS function that wants to show e.g. a help section use the OS embedded browser.

That might be acceptable if no thought went into the combination of the two things.

I accept people must work at height. I accept that people occasionally fall over by accident. We have guard rails and harnesses so that I don't have to accept people falling to their death every time they trip at height.

For example it wouldn't be ridiculous to think that if the browser is tightly coupled with the OS (to the point that it doesn't change when you set the default browser) that you can have the embedded browser opened with a no nag/no ad flag set.

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#474

My wife’s laptop just upgraded itself to windows 11 pro form 10 pro unasked & unsolicited and all prefs were changed to microsoft traps including edge being the default. Dark patterns galore. Luckily I could revert back to the previous version.

I spent 2 hours trying to uninstall Edge unsuccessfully then decided to live with it.

On Windows 10 with IE and Edge removed I ran into a situation where Windows update stopped working. The only fix I could find was to install Edge then try the updates again, which worked.

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should Microsoft spend any money on maintaining a QA team and doing functional verification? What's the business benefit? Leaving QA to a bunch of amateurs is a good thing: it saves MS lots of money, and so increases profitability, and increases shareholder value. Windows users aren't going to stop using Windows because of a bunch of bugs that a dedicated QA department would have caught, so there's no reason to a…

Remember that those bugs and antifeatures may also cause those very Microsoft shareholders and employees to lose data (and money and time). It is not like Microsoft shareholders are forbidden to use Microsoft products.

I don't see the board of directors or other large shareholders complaining to Microsoft about their product quality.

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#476
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main problem with Debian is outdated software. I'm a Debian user. I see this a lot. Often in contrast with Ubuntu. Yet Debian's cycle is roughly on par with Ubuntu's LTS - every ~2 years.[0] Perhaps they mean there are interim releases in Ubuntu? It's hard to say for sure, as the phrase 'outdated software' can mean different things (more than 6 months old, more than 2 years old, in need of a security patch for…

> This sounds like you want Debian Testing Please, don't recommend Debian Testing to unsuspecting people. The distro is aimed at people that know what they are getting, and has no guarantee it will keep working unless you know really well what you are doing. Even Unstable is supposed to be more beginner friendly.

> Please, don't recommend Debian Testing to unsuspecting people.

Was parent unsuspecting?

They said they wanted 'more frequent updates even at the cost of a little stability'.

They sound like they're very much in the suspecting camp.

The challenge with Debian Testing is some security exposures are longer than for either stable or unstable, hence the recommendation to keep unstable in your sources, ready to go, and maintain some awareness around CVEs / DSAs.

> Even Unstable is supposed to be more beginner friendly.

I can happily disabuse you of that notion.

Definitely, you should not recommend Debian Unstable to unsuspecting people.

I have occasionally run unstable on one of my machines over the years, but now pretty much avoid it.

When it breaks you either wait for a few days for it to be fixed, or you spend a lot of time trying to understand what's broken - usually with a machine that doesn't get you to a GUI.

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#477
post #37

I don't care for edge for the most part, but there is actually one integration with edge that I have come to like. When I click on an email link inside outlook, edge opens the link, and also displays a sidebar which displays the email. Super handy IMO. Somehow we need to find a balance that allows vendors to tightly integrate their apps but prevent abusing this. MS is everyone's favorite whipping boy, but I fear what…

> but I fear what kind of ads Google while shove through if they ever get a dominant market share in desktop OSs

Google is the dominant mobile OS and doesn't cram ads into basic functionality of the device. You won't see ads when opening the app launcher or settings.

On Windows 11, you can see ads if you open the start bar.

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#479
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sounds like you want Debian Testing Please, don't recommend Debian Testing to unsuspecting people. The distro is aimed at people that know what they are getting, and has no guarantee it will keep working unless you know really well what you are doing. Even Unstable is supposed to be more beginner friendly.

> Please, don't recommend Debian Testing to unsuspecting people. Was parent unsuspecting? They said they wanted 'more frequent updates even at the cost of a little stability'. They sound like they're very much in the suspecting camp. The challenge with Debian Testing is some security exposures are longer than for either stable or unstable, hence the recommendation to keep unstable in your sources, ready to go, and ma…

> Was parent unsuspecting?

I really don't know. You don't get Testing at the cost of "a little" instability. You get it at the cost of things eventually breaking in an update, and you having to sort it out on your own. It's a failure mode quite unique to it, and nobody mentioned anything about this. So yeah, I don't get any reason to believe either way. (Also, Unstable isn't supposed to have this one failure mode, but it's supposed to have partial failures way more often. That fits the mental model of "instability" for most people much better than Testing.)

But then, the alternative people are talking about is Ubuntu. Ubuntu breaks much more often than Debian Testing... Up to the point where people don't upgrade it carelessly, so they experience a more stable system. So again, I don't know. IMO, it was worth at least putting a warning there.

Re: Microsoft has not stopped forcing Edge on Windows 11 users

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's 2023 and I still can't get a Dell laptop with Linux pre-installed to sleep properly without crashing without editing things in the terminal and mucking about in the bios. Even giving up on that and disabling sleep on lid close requires using the terminal. Sure the Gnome Tweaks tool has a setting for that but it's not installed by default and check the comments here, it doesn't actually work. https://askubuntu.co…

Be mad at Dell, not Linux. Pretty much every sleep issue I've encountered in the wild is due to the hardware manufacturer's shitty implementation. The only reason some features "just work" with Windows is because they only care if it works with Windows. Ultimately it still sucks if it happens with your hardware, but you should direct your frustration to the right party. Maybe one day people will care enough and inter…

Either way it doesn't change the fact that you need to do this on Linux but not Windows. There's dozens of fiddly little things like this that you don't need to do on Windows.

I use each OSX, Ubuntu and Windows daily but I could never recommend my mother switch to Ubuntu or Mint because of things like this.

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