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Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

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191–200 of 348 posts

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#191
post #27

Largely unrelated, but the thing which leaves me feeling most wiped-out is playing (modern) computer games. I've cut them out completely, as they have no positive benefits and leave me listless and unmotivated.

> as they have no positive benefits Hopefully you at least enjoyed playing them?

I quit playing video games years ago when I realized that they were more like an unpaid part-time job than something that I actually enjoyed. Spending hours to solve the puzzle or complete the mission or get to the next level, with nothing to show for it at the end.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#192

Isn't it pretty well-known that many diseases/disorders are likely from post-viral infection? Howard Bloom who famously had CFS for decades talked about how he had a bad flu that never got better and his long recovery from it. https://medicalerrorinterviews.podbean.com/e/howard-bloom-pa... Michael J Fox who famously has Parkinson's mentioned being sick in his documentary "Still" while filming "Leo and Me" where other…

> It is beyond me how people can deny post viral syndromes. If there’s anything the mass death and injury of COVID have taught me, it’s that there is pretty much no level of harm that can’t be justified with appeals to “they deserve it because X”, with X being whatever quality or characteristic allows someone to rationalize away the fundamentally random and widespread harm as being limited to an out-group. This shoul…

This is the scary thing about people. We're a pretty horrible species. This is how they justify genocides.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#193
post #27

Largely unrelated, but the thing which leaves me feeling most wiped-out is playing (modern) computer games. I've cut them out completely, as they have no positive benefits and leave me listless and unmotivated.

Interesting - yes my take on this is that gaming is a dissociative activity, so typically the symptoms will resolve during the activity, but afterwards will make CSS/CSS worse.

Serious question: Why would this be any different than reading a book?

Is the implied suggestion, that, anything that is not "real" is bad? Does watching a tv show, movie or youtube video, reading a novel, or listening to podcasts of people discussing things (either fictional or "real world") have the same supposed impact? What about listening to a co-worker tell me about their weekend?

How do we define a disassociative activity?

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#194

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

You could be completely right in some cases, but the way you present this is completely disregarding a professional researcher, peer reviewed and published paper, and honestly quite decent pop sci writeup. I don't think that level of dismissal is fair or respectful unless you accompany it with a relevant criticism of the research itself.

I'm a neuroscientist who published on central sensitization and chronic pain. Unfortunately, I was forced into retirement by chronic fatigue syndrome.

The linked article and others have convinced me that CFS can be caused by viruses.

There's one important and tricky question: is a viral infection necessary to trigger CFS in humans (such as long COVID or in this linked article), or is an extremely stressful series of events (which could include the physical stress of a severe viral infection) sufficient?

Giving a certain interpretation of their comment, I think the physician could be stating that they've seen patients with CFS that has been triggered by stressful events alone. I think this can coexist with the linked research if CFS can be triggered by stress OR a virus.

When chronic stress is mentioned as a factor, that should not be interpreted as being a psychological predisposition ("it is all in their head"). Instead, it is a predisposition on a cellular level.

The brain regions involved in central sensitization are tightly linked with those involved in chronic stress. Animal models of chronic stress lead to central sensitization of pain, as do animal models of chronic illness. Chronic stress causes an immense amount of remodeling in the brain and the rest of the body.

Proving or disproving that CFS can be triggered by chronic stress alone is difficult because CFS is a diagnosis of exclusion. Diagnosis can take a long time. We humans are always getting viruses and occasionally enduring stressful life events, so it is difficult to untangle the two.

If we look at my personal history, my diagnosis took several years (above average for CFS patients). I can point to 3 stressful life events and 2 viral illnesses that might have preceded CFS onset. The cause for my CFS remains a mystery.

Without a mechanism and diagnostic test for CFS, I think this question will remain unanswered.

I think it is contentious to say that CFS is an endpoint of central sensitization. It might be, but it also might be related to mitochondrial dysfunction or another mechanism-- too soon to tell, in my opinion. Central sensitization is certainly a component, but I do not think it is proven to be the only component. I should say that I'm extremely biased towards believing in central sensitization as the cause of many things because that was the primary focus of my research.

Again, without a mechanism and a diagnostic test for CFS, much is murky. Viral infection can at least be a cause. I think we're far away from having a tidy answer like the story of H. pylori and ulcers though.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but if you look at male outcomes, we are clearly ignoring a lot of real health problems that are deadly, so 66% of males ignoring a less than deadly problem that allows 8 hours of work a day seems more likely than a lot of female hypochondriacs to me.

This argument could be applied to any condition with psychosomatic indicators. Your suggestion that somatically-involved conditions aren't 'real' is offensive and what gives rise to the stigma that means we can't talk about this in the first place.

There's no telling what's real once you are willing to go down that route, least of all a doctors opinion. If someone stops displaying symptoms that could just be a non blinded doctor and a placebo.

I think the offense is going there without any double blinded science and then relying on non reproducible fields of research to annoy the patient.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#197

Isn't it pretty well-known that many diseases/disorders are likely from post-viral infection? Howard Bloom who famously had CFS for decades talked about how he had a bad flu that never got better and his long recovery from it. https://medicalerrorinterviews.podbean.com/e/howard-bloom-pa... Michael J Fox who famously has Parkinson's mentioned being sick in his documentary "Still" while filming "Leo and Me" where other…

People denied Covid and often deny anything that forces them to confront uncomfortable truths. It’s a coping mechanism.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#198

Isn't it pretty well-known that many diseases/disorders are likely from post-viral infection? Howard Bloom who famously had CFS for decades talked about how he had a bad flu that never got better and his long recovery from it. https://medicalerrorinterviews.podbean.com/e/howard-bloom-pa... Michael J Fox who famously has Parkinson's mentioned being sick in his documentary "Still" while filming "Leo and Me" where other…

>It is beyond me how people can deny post viral syndromes. I feel part of the problem is we don't really have any good treatments for it. I know my doctor put it down as post viral tiredness but when I asked how long it might last or what I could do about it he just shrugged his shoulders.

[flagged]

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is beyond me how people can deny post viral syndromes. I feel part of the problem is we don't really have any good treatments for it. I know my doctor put it down as post viral tiredness but when I asked how long it might last or what I could do about it he just shrugged his shoulders.

[flagged]

Why ground beef?

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#200

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

You appear to be speaking definitively as if you're fully devoted to this conclusion, even though the evidence is shaky at best. This is precisely why there's so much vitriol towards physicians when dealing with neurological symptoms. It's also why people flock to sketchy naturopaths and "alternative medicine" that peddle hundreds of dollars of snake oil supplements.

We should be exhausting and excluding all physiological causes before jumping to the psychiatric model. If you truly believe this, then your duty as a provider is to refer the patient to someone who is qualified to address the mental health of patients - a psychologist. Refrain from labeling your patients with this condition, as that will only burn the patient-provider relationship more and will lead to further distrust in the medical community. Regardless of the origins of CFS, it's important that patients have professional mental health resources that can help them navigate the stress and anxiety around their disability.

Here is some research which discusses how providers may be mislead into raising concerns over psychiatric/somatic disorders due to the lack of evidence on conventional diagnostics. In this research paper, patients experienced MS symptoms and appear to have normal conventional MRIs, but further analysis with advanced MRI techniques reveals inflammation in the CNS: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5880628 . This highlights how important it is to understand we have not exhausted our diagnostic potential and should be cautious about making claims without solid evidence.

EDIT - also since you're using your credentials as a physician here, do you mind sharing what area of practice you're in?

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