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Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

medicalxpress.com

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Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#111

Post by morsch »

bowsamic wrote: post #75
patates wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My employer terminated my employment two weeks after that. In retrospect, I should have pursued legal action. I assume you're from the USA? I really hear the high-life stories with some envy and respect but oh boy is there another side of the coin... In any case, I'm sorry to hear that, and hope that it becomes an insignificant unfortunate moment not even worth mentioning in your otherwise happy life story.

I mean, even here in Germany you would probably get fired for being ill for so long unless you had already passed your 1 year probation. My wife had a boss who used to fire people for absolutely anything

It's true that you can be fired during the probationary period, for any reason including "excessive" sick leave. But the probationary period is limited to six months, by law.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#112

Post by pjc50 »

lindsaywaterman wrote: post #21

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

Hmm. The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)? This reminds me of a lot of physical/psychological/"it's all in your head" discussions with various sorts of CFS sufferer, most of whom have serious problems getting anyone to take seriously the possibility that it might not be all in your head.

https://www.cfsselfhelp.org/pacing-tutorial reminds me of what the livejournallers called "spoon theory". In both cases the observation is that exceeding one's limits can cause a "crash" of much worsened symptoms. At least it recognizes PEM and doesn't recommend blindly applying graduated exercise therapy.

Do you have any good research on ME/CFS biomarkers?

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#113

Post by Izkata »

pjc50 wrote: post #112
lindsaywaterman wrote: post #21

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

Hmm. The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)? This reminds me of a lot of physical/psychological/"it's all in your head" discussions with various sorts of CFS sufferer, most of whom have serious problems getting anyone to take seriously the possibility that it might not be all in your head. https://www.cfsselfhelp.org/pacing-tuto…

> The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)?

Psychosomatic exists between these two, which I think is what they're describing.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#114

Post by pjc50 »

Izkata wrote: post #113
pjc50 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm. The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)? This reminds me of a lot of physical/psychological/"it's all in your head" discussions with various sorts of CFS sufferer, most of whom have serious problems getting anyone to take seriously the possibility that it might not be all in your head. https://www.cfsselfhelp.org/pacing-tuto…

> The argument is that it lies within the nervous system (physically), but then you mention avoidance/dissociation (psychological)? Psychosomatic exists between these two, which I think is what they're describing.

.. but is a really poorly understood (set of) mechanisms?

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#115

Post by thenerdhead »

Isn't it pretty well-known that many diseases/disorders are likely from post-viral infection?

Howard Bloom who famously had CFS for decades talked about how he had a bad flu that never got better and his long recovery from it.

https://medicalerrorinterviews.podbean.com/e/howard-bloom-pa...

Michael J Fox who famously has Parkinson's mentioned being sick in his documentary "Still" while filming "Leo and Me" where other crew members also have Parkinsons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_and_Me

https://www.michaeljfox.org/grant/h5n1-influenza-virus-etiol...

Many people who are suffering with Long Covid CFS are more obvious though. The significant event from their pre/post covid life was a covid infection.

It is beyond me how people can deny post viral syndromes. Just about every major virus has documented literature of people suffering. Long covid is putting a flashlight on a real problem. For those more interested in the journey, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYNMzaZk_iU for a great overview.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#116

Post by growingkittens »

smearth wrote: post #95
lindsaywaterman wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re totally right that worse somatic symptoms create a viscipus cycle of avoidance and worsening symptoms. I do think that a chronic pattern of avoidance is what causes somatizing in the first place tho. Peace.

You might think that but it doesn’t heal anyone. Recovery rates for cfs are abysmal, I’m surprised you aren’t ashamed of your profession’s performance in this area. You seem comfortable placing responsibility for the illness on your patients “avoidance”. Yet it is initiated by a virus and everyone has different levels of mitochondrial density, resilience and health and different inflammatory cascades. “Avoidance” of…

I think you're reading the term "avoidant stress response" and the consequent term "chronic avoidance" as having a moral value. This is an issue with many medical terms.

In my understanding, these terms simply refer to how an individual tackles problems: do they avoid asking for help to the point of dysfunction, or are they able to ask for help when needed?

edit: Once an individual's systems are out of balance, it can be difficult to rebalance without the right perspective. If an individual cannot regain equilibrium due to interacting factors (such as someone who grew up without ever knowing equilibrium), the lack of balance becomes chronic.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#117

Post by quantumwoke »

eganist wrote: post #107
AussieWog93 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>completely disregarding a professional researcher, peer reviewed and published paper As someone who used to be on the track to academia, this is something that more people should do. Most published research is false, and even most of the correct stuff is useless. I'd go so far as to say any research that hasn't directly lead to at least a physical demo being produced can be safely ignored.

> As someone who used to be on the track to academia, this is something that more people should do. You're right, and akdor1154 already addressed this in the same breath: > I don't think that level of dismissal is fair or respectful unless you accompany it with a relevant criticism of the research itself. Emphasis mine.

Although I agree that we are framing this thread in the context of the original article, this medical professional is presenting their (experienced) opinion, and GP is not discussing it and instead chooses to require some token criticism of the article. This doesn't seem charitable to someone presenting their professional opinion.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#118

Post by confidantlake »

Can chronic fatigue type syndrome that only effects you mentally, not physically? I have zero energy to do things that take mental energy unless I take ADD meds and even then it is a struggle. But doing things physically I have no problems. Like to the point I would rather walk a mile somewhere than figure out how to buy a bus ticket in an unfamiliar city.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#119

Post by GordonS »

smearth wrote: post #91
lindsaywaterman wrote: post #21

Physician here. Imo CFS is best understood as the endpoint of an evolution within the nervous system that is increasingly called "central sensitization syndrome." (CSS) This syndrome is caused by a chronic dissociative or avoidant stress response, usually having it's origin in early childhood adversity. Prior to developing CFS, most individuals have other manifestations of CSS, such as IBS, chronic pain, TMD, etc. Ev…

I think conditioning medical students to race other medical students to label health problems quickly- efectively turning medical school into a sleep deprived game of trivial pursuit for competitive, high IQ, mentally resilient, energetic people - only prepares those people to heal simple medical conditions involving 1 or 2 body systems. This functionality is becoming largely replaceble by llm’s who are also competen…

I have CFS too, going on 8 years now. Small fibre neuropathy in my limbs too.

Aside from pain management (opioids, ketamine, cannabis), I haven't found anything else to be helpful, and pacing was the opposite of helpful.

You mentioned strength training... how is that possible? I don't know about you, but I have a constant, lactic acid-like burning sensation in my arms, which becomes much worse upon exertion - for example, if I life a kettle full of water, my arm is burning with a strong need to put it down within a few seconds.

Re: Chronic fatigue syndrome may have a post-viral infection origin

#120

Post by growingkittens »

DrThunder wrote: post #105
tudorw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please think before you write, this is extremely offensive.

It's not a offensive to portray objective reality. People can and often do overreact and fake symptoms. This is just how it is. Why would that offend anyone? The alternative to this is burying your head in the sand and saying we should take everyone at their word. This would result in a WORSE outcome for people that actually have the issues you're so worried about because the data would be skewed. Maybe you ought to…

Let's do some thinking: collectively, we don't know enough about CFS or the human brain to make definitive statements like 'a large number are faking it.' You've confused your emotions for logic.
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