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Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

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Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#361

Post by globular-toast »

tristor wrote: post #147
cpursley wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The touchscreens are really a dealbreaker on new cars. They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.

I hate them so much. Otherwise great cars are completely ruined by touchscreens. What was wrong with tactile knobs you could operate one handed without looking? You’re driving for fuck’s sake. It’s why things like the GR Corolla are nearly miraculous in 2023, it even comes stick shift only.

I think a lot of people miss the obvious reason: it's cheaper. People seem to think it's some misguided attempt to make things better but really it's just that they've identified a way to cut costs.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#362

Post by hedora »

tristor wrote: post #132

Of all the horrible things go on with privacy these days, this is the one I hate the most. I’m a “car guy”, but not the sort that obsesses over old cars (although I do love 60s and 80s cars). I like new tech, I like the advances in engineering we’ve made in new vehicles, I like EVs even. Nonetheless I’ve been in the market for a new car for months and haven’t bought because it’s hard to find any cars that meet my req…

I was planning to get a Nissan Leaf (worst privacy among all manufacturers in the round up) but luckily stumbled on a BMW i3 instead. They have the best telemetry story by far, and it has a well-implemented jog wheel instead of a touch screen. Also, it has a carbon-fiber frame. It looks like a tall econobox, but handles extremely well.

The i3 has been discontinued and the new models have a touch screen in addition to the jog wheel, so it's possible the jog wheel on those is poorly implemented, and not enough to actually use the car.

I haven't test driven one of the newer models, but I'd carefully check the computer UI before purchasing one.

Anyway, I'm hoping BMW succeeds with their contrarian approach of having physical controls, and not treating their customers terribly, and that the other manufacturers follow their lead.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#363

Post by geitir »

j1elo wrote: post #227
vannucci wrote: post #78

The more I read about these things, the more I think I'll be driving my 23 year old Toyota 4Runner until the end of my life

Except when you live in a city where they start to limit and ban transit of older cars, to force people transitioning into lower emission models, or public transit. Like in Spain (through rules ultimately coming from Europe) there is a class of vehicles which are gradually being kicked out (banned from crossing certain very ample boundaries around the city): gasoline cars made before 2001, and diesel powered cars mad…

In many states in the US if your car lives long enough you get rewarded with exemption from emissions requirements!

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#364

Post by codedokode »

glogla wrote: post #259
yardie wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2018? I doubt car manufacturers can move that fast. Apple didn't implement eSIM until 2018 for the iPhone XS. No way an auto maker has it before consumer electronics maker.

Given the Wikipedia page about eSIM says: The European Commission selected the eUICC format for its in-vehicle emergency call service, known as eCall, in 2012.[23] All new car models in the EU must have one by 2018 to instantly connect the car to emergency services in case of an accident.[24] I'd say they have been around since then. edit: here is a great talk about how eSIMs work from last CCC https://media.ccc.de/v…

Shouldn't emergency services be accessible without a SIM? On the other hand, using a SIM allows government to track car's movement.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#365

Post by globular-toast »

HumblyTossed wrote: post #196
stanski wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume it's a cost thing. Slapping a tablet everywhere and letting the code monkeys figure it out is probably cheaper than making various knobs and buttons. I dread the day I have to get a new car. Even Subaru, who are usually behind the curve, have gone all touch screen.

> I assume it's a cost thing. Is it though? It's not like they have to reinvent the button each time. Buttons that last a decade or three have already been designed.

Definitely. That's why so many cheap electronics come with touch sensors instead of buttons these days.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#366

Post by EricE »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #293
seattle_spring wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately lots of people are happy to pay the markups. Some subreddits, including /r/rav4prime , will ban you for speaking negatively about dealer markups or those who pay them. Here's their hilariously condescendingly worded rule 4: > No demonstrations of economic illiteracy. No negativity regarding markups. You are encouraged to post about current prices and markups and your dealership experiences, but please D…

It's a fair point though. The markups are a function of demand and are totally normal and expected market behavior. People who complain about it are almost exclusively people who don't understand how markets work. It's tiring listening to uneducated people constantly coming through and complaining. If dealers weren't marking up the price, there would be no car at all available for sale. People mistakenly think that i…

As dealer inventory starts to pile up, car prices are finally coming down. Anyone paying a markup in today's market just isn't doing their homework. I've yet to pay MSRP or beyond for a car and I don't intend to start now!

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#367

Post by vannucci »

sharkweek wrote: post #99
vannucci wrote: post #78

The more I read about these things, the more I think I'll be driving my 23 year old Toyota 4Runner until the end of my life

Yo fellow 3rd gen driver! Bought my 2000 SR5 in 09 and it’s gone way up in value since then. Have had 3 random people ask me over the last few years how much I’d take for it and the answer is always “not for sale.”

Same here, I bought mine just as pandemic car prices plunged. It's not my primary right now but it might just become it. It's sad because I'm a car guy and I like some of the newer tech and all, I just can't stand all the markups and spyware and most of the time I just don't want to bother debugging my ride.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#368

Post by lief79 »

dylan604 wrote: post #278
ghaff wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably true that once you (more or less) need a screen for a decent backup camera and most people like a screen for at least GPS, it must be pretty tempting to at least think about what physical buttons can reasonably be eliminated given that the touchscreen is a given. And I do think a lot of designs go too far.

>and most people like a screen for at least GPS personal anecdotes, but the vast majority of me being a passenger to someone else's driving, they all used their mobile device for GPS. even the couple of cars i owned that had a nav system, the GPS came from the mobile device. it required their app to be installed to input the destination, making the internal unit just a second screen for your mobile.

My dad, who's a fairly recently retired techy, is the only exception I know. I'm assuming it's based on perceived safety and less need to take his eyes off the road.

Granted, he took a long time getting a smart phone because they weren't allowed in his secured office, while dumb phones with no camera where allowed longer. On the other hand, he's also automated his home (a few times with updates), so it's really the one weird outlier.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#369

Post by sergiosgc »

rootusrootus wrote: post #342
sergiosgc wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an European, where we drive mostly stick, it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts. It's funny because it happened almost exactly when automatics became good! Good dual clutch gearboxes are amazing, but even "classic" ones like BMW's ZF6 or ZF8 are really close. ZF8 is so good BMW uses it in the M3, instead of a dual clutch. With these options, I'd never go back to stick shift. This after having…

> As an European, where we drive mostly stick Enjoy it while it lasts. As of a couple years ago, more than half of all new cars sold in Europe are automatics. That doesn't seem too surprising, I imagine the same logic that made manuals appealing in the past is why automatics are appealing today.

I'm on the side fostering that change. Ever since I got a Mini Countryman with a ZF6. I was forced into an automatic because the car was a hybrid, and now I wouldn't go back to manual.

The car was a little janky from a dead stop, when running solely on gas. I probably would miss the precision for maneuvering you get with a clutch. I didn't, actually, because of the electric motor doing these operations perfectly.

Re: Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla

#370

Post by tpmoney »

jibe wrote: post #277
tpmoney wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta... With a relevant paragraph on page 2 The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in c…

The part of your post that made me curious was whether fuel mapping, or ECU swapping was illegal. It looks like it is in a grey area under Clean Air Act, but generally interpreted as legal as long as you aren't doing things to make your emissions worse.

At least as far as ECUs go, almost every after market ECU I’ve seen doesn’t control OBD II or the CEL (or does so very minimally) and is therefore immediately in violation of not conforming to the requirements to retain OEM level behavior. Fuel mapping is more grey, largely due to the ability of some OEM ECUs to be reflashed and thus retain OBD behavior.
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