Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety'

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#71

Post by cameronh90 » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #48

londons_explore wrote: post #19

Speed limits are a classic safety vs economy trade off.

Safety versus making fun vrooming noises. Collisions cost enormous sums even before you think of the thousands of people who have life-altering injuries, and the vast majority of the time the driver is not saving any time at all (just sitting longer at the next signal or patch of congestion), or an economically negligible amount of time. Because speeding causes traffic congestion, there is a fair chance this would ev…

On the other hand, higher speeds use a LOT more fuel, so going faster needs to be balanced out with more frequent fuel stops. Especially for electric cars where charging can take a while. Can definitely see situations where driving faster takes longer overall.

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#72

Post by diffeomorphism » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

JeanMarcS wrote: post #25

Ideal would be speed limit based on the road. I drove some "roads" in Ireland, where speed limit is 80km/h but driving faster than 40km/h is daredevil behavior. And don't mention the fact that some roads are not large enough for crossing another vehicule, but it can happen (and sometime the locals drive at 80... A lot of surprise braking !) But it's obviously more difficult to implement, and more difficult for the sp…

> Ideal would be speed limit based on the road.

You kinda already have that, but you cannot make it too confusing for drivers.

German example for roads between cities: No sign at all, default speed limit 100. 70 sign (usually with a reason e.g. winding road, trees etc). 50 sign or even 30 sign, no overtaking sign, e.g. narrow road, pot holes, intersections. Works, but can be quite stressful to keep track of particularly for new drivers.

Issues with that: The locals who drive 80 will complain that there is no reason for a 40 sign and laws tend to require a reason (e.g. speeding tickets are cancelled retroactively if the state cannot justify why there needs to be a limit). Too many signs and cases confuse drivers and are easily missed. Installing, replacing, repairing and keeping track of signs is expensive. Too many rapid adjustments also don't work well with slowing down, accelerating, reading signs etc., so it cannot be too fine grained.

That is why there are "one speed for those type of road fit all" approaches: to keep matters simple.

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#73

Post by cameronh90 » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

zoky wrote: post #24

saiya-jin wrote: post #10

Switzerland has 120kmh instead of typical EU limit of 130kmh. Slightly less pollution of all types, slightly safer roads, cars last slightly longer. Typical swiss driver is anything but typical driver basically anywhere - polite, respectful, and just doesn't break rules in mormal situations. I really like it this way, and couldnt care less for the limit, saving 1-2 minutes is neglible every time. That being said, any…

Nah. No speed limits is great, as long as everyone behaves by the rules. Stay the hell out of the left lane, unless you’re passing. If you’re in the left lane and someone is in your rear-view, you move right. Otherwise, drive as fast as you feel like you can safely go, without having to worry about being pulled over and cited for doing something perfectly safe. Driving on the Autobahn in Germany was one of the more l…

There's a point where speed becomes inherently unsafe due to visual limits. If cars were able to travel at Mach 2, then you'd be constantly at risk of getting into a crash whenever you change lane, because cars can approach quicker than you can make a decision.

There will be an upper speed limit somewhere, it might just be higher than cars can currently drive.

Also unrestricted parts of the autobahn have a pretty bad safety record.

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#74

Post by whelp_24 » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

wiredfool wrote: post #61

whelp_24 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The speed limit being 70 in the us is a bad joke. A relic from the gas shortage we had once that must have proven lucrative. Our roads are long wide and straight, it shouldn't be so low. (though Texas has some 85mph sections)

That was 55.

Yeah, but the hard speed limits existence in the first place was from this. There used to be roads with limits, and the limits also took a long time to go up, they are still low, and most backroads are still like 55 or lower

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#75

Post by linuxftw » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:39 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #57

linuxftw wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want people to obey the speed limit, pay them more money. You don't need to speed to work or home if you live within a reasonable commuting distance of your office. You don't need to speed to go to some recreation activity if you make enough to actually enjoy your leisure time.

It's not the government's job to pay people more (beyond the public sector obviously), and while they can do certain things to improve commutes, reduce working hours, or increase holidays… I don't have any reason to believe those are the reasons for the rush. (My belief may be biased by a certain person I used to know: he was driving one of two vehicles with me and my friends to an event that wouldn't start until bot…

Sure, there's a handful of crazies out on the road, but the majority of speeders are due to economic incentives. It's called 'rush hour' for a reason.

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#76

Post by whelp_24 » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:41 PM UTC

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #26

cameronh90 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK we're starting to install average speed cameras in lots of places. Almost every major road in my area has an average speed camera on some stretch. And I, for one, I think it's great. It's not a popular position but I'm a speed limit enforcement maximalist. I think if you're going 31 in a 30, after accounting for measurement errors, there should be enforcement action. Driving is one of the most dangerous thi…

Me too. There has to be a hard limit. It might as well be the posted limit. Encouraging everyone to break the law just means selective enforcement is a bigger problem. If safety depends on cars moving the same speed, then everyone else should slow down to the speed limit to match my speed. I really don't get this brinksmanship stuff. "Oh it's just 5 MPH, it's just 10 MPH." A limit was posted. The negotiation process…

There doesn't really have to be, we could let cars drive for the conditions. Also, unless the UK is different, there isn't a negotiation process before either...

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#77

Post by diffeomorphism » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:45 PM UTC

dynm wrote: post #63

> In urban, residential and other built-up areas the limit would be cut from 50km/h to 30km/h. > The limit on main arterial routes in towns and cities would be capped at 50km/h. > On national secondary roads, the baseline would fall from 100km/h to 80km/h. One thing I always wonder with changes like this is, why make such a dramatic change (a 40% reduction in urban areas) in a single step? It seems more sensible to m…

First answer is simplicity: you have a few prototypical road types and speeds and easy to remember round numbers. E.g. 30 signs are common for inner cities, 50 for outer, but 40 or non-multiple of 10 is extremely rare. That is also reflected in gears for cars, i.e. going at those speed requires very little active input by the driver while going at exactly 42 would need constant manual adjustment.

> It seems more sensible to make the the change more slowly and study the results.

That was already done locally and other countries exist. So you would have to argue what makes Ireland that unique that further experiments are needed.

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#78

Post by wiredfool » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

whelp_24 wrote: post #74

wiredfool wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was 55.

Yeah, but the hard speed limits existence in the first place was from this. There used to be roads with limits, and the limits also took a long time to go up, they are still low, and most backroads are still like 55 or lower

No, it wasn't. At least, anywhere other than Montana.

The limits were higher, then Carter made then 55, nationally. Montana used to have "Safe and Reasonable" as a daytime speed limit. During 55, it was forced to be that, but it was widely ignored and there was a $5 fine for "Excessively Utilizing Natural Resources". People would hold a $5 bill out the window when pulled over.

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#79

Post by acdha » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 2:08 PM UTC

cameronh90 wrote: post #71

acdha wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safety versus making fun vrooming noises. Collisions cost enormous sums even before you think of the thousands of people who have life-altering injuries, and the vast majority of the time the driver is not saving any time at all (just sitting longer at the next signal or patch of congestion), or an economically negligible amount of time. Because speeding causes traffic congestion, there is a fair chance this would ev…

On the other hand, higher speeds use a LOT more fuel, so going faster needs to be balanced out with more frequent fuel stops. Especially for electric cars where charging can take a while. Can definitely see situations where driving faster takes longer overall.

Definitely - that’s why I described it as drivers seeking excitement since it rarely is a win from a logical standpoint but there’s so much culture around driving fast.

Re: Plans to cut speed limits ‘will significantly improve road safety' – minister

#80

Post by acdha » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 2:14 PM UTC

sixstringtheory wrote: post #60

cameronh90 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ALPRs. They're so bad for privacy. Some countries have, or used to have, regulations saying that the devices aren't allowed to record the number plate details unless a crime is detected. I don't know how well that works since you're relying on the police to self-enforce that. The UK doesn't have any such regulations and has fully embraced ANPR. They are being deployed everywhere now, for speed limit and red light e…

> potential future introduction of road pricing Interesting, because in the states, similar infrastructure is being deployed specifically for road pricing. I assume then we can start working on the more sensible uses you describe, but don’t have high hopes that it will be easy or quick.

That seems very sensible: in the United States driving is massively subsidized but even with so much general fund revenue we have more road infrastructure than we can maintain because cars don’t scale well. Shifting the cost back to the direct users will both provide desperately needed maintenance funds and reduce congestion by deterring low-value trips.