How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s • Hacker News Board

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#431

Post by thriftwy » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 11:23 AM UTC

famahar wrote: post #77

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

I hope we one day see a radical new form of raising children. Historically it was truly a village that raised a child. I never understood how my parents raised 5 children. But looking into it more, there was always a community of people that raised me. Community and mutual aid was huge in the small town in Ethiopia where my parents came from. Coming to Canada, that didn't change. Uncles, aunts, older cousins, long ti…

What about introverted subset of people who prefer to be left alone, to not participate in wider social networks, who want to have a family and a door that shuts?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#432

Post by Daishiman » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #352

Daishiman wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're aware that 3-5C is perfectly within the business-as-usual scenarios and 5C is easily a civilization-ending trend.

I'm using BAU loosely here. I'm not referring to RCP 8.5. I have my own issues with the IPCC's estimates relying to much on direct air capture, but I don't think 5-6c is likely unless there's an unforseen feedback loop we haven't factored in. I'd almost bet money on the eventual use of stratospheric sulfide injection to cool the planet. It's cheap enough that even a third world country could conceivably pay for it. W…

The IPCC reports don’t really factor in the dramatic acceleration of methane emissions from bogs and Siberian wetlands.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#433

Post by thriftwy » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 9:17 PM UTC

CrackerNews wrote: post #341

sapa777 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As impressive as it sounds to say South Korea developed successfully on its own, did it? Did the US play any hand in its development? I mean obviously South Korea would not exist had it not been for the US' help in the war. But even afterwards, is there an sort of advantage South Korea had by having the US (the leading super power at the time) help?

It's arguable that Japan helped South Korea industrialize by offloading industries it could no longer afford due to rising wages. This article is about analyzing the comparison raised between South Korea and Ukraine, but it is largely about analyzing how South Korea industrialized from Japan's assistance. https://eventsinukraine.substack.com/p/the-ukraine-south-kor...

Awesome article - thank you

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#434

Post by thriftwy » Sat, Sep 02, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

neom wrote: post #202

My wife and I have opted not to have children for reasons* and it's really sad how the conversation with the in-laws has moved from "you should have children because children" to "you need to have children because korea needs you to have children", and it's not just a passing comment here and there, the campaign to get us to single handedly re-populate SK is intense and sustained. I wonder if other couples are experi…

I wonder why your in-laws won't provide you with means to have children if they want you to have children.

In Russia it is customary to provide children with some kind of housing ("granny's flat") either for living or for renting out, even without any expectations.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#435

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 7:09 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #424

devbent wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your entire thesis is wrong. People are not having kids because they have good alternatives now. International travel is affordable for more and more people, regularly going to fine dining establishments is something accessible to most American software engineers, and the people left having kids are the ones either too poor to afford those good things anyways, or people who are knowingly giving them up in exc…

International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. I don't mean quantitatively, but qualitatively - you don't get the same kind of satisfaction from both. The only thing I'd say is somewhat qualitatively comparable is being a in a loving relationship.

You are assuming everyone gets joy out of children, or that everyone is a capable parent. These are demonstrably false.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#436

Post by anthonypasq » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 3:31 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #415

anthonypasq wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

poor people have more kids so your entire argument is nonsense

I don't understand, is your reasoning that South Korea should become a poor country? Yes poor people have more babies, but those poor people are becoming a smaller set in South Korea. You now need to analyze why, specifically, SK's (and many other country's) middle class aren't having children.

umm no, im saying your argument that the reason people dont have kids is because they cant afford them is exactly wrong. The number of children people have is perfectly inversely correlated by how wealthy they are, and many of the countries with the best socialized child care and other government programs to help poor people (northern europe) have some of the lowest birth rates in the world.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#437

Post by cameldrv » Tue, Sep 05, 2023, 6:39 PM UTC

sw104 wrote: post #392

cameldrv wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea. You see this sort of thing throughout the westernized world, perhaps not as extreme as SK, but I've never been so I can't compare. This is a completely busted system of values though... Almost everything you mention is the luxury version of things that all have functionally very similar alternatives at a much lower cost. The main value is signaling and maybe satisfying some mimetic desire. As signal…

> Do they not have any purpose for their lives beyond consumption? A lot of people have no purpose in their life beyond consumption. Truly, this is it. If people put the tiniest fraction of work into their fitness, their personality, their intelligence or any other character-building activity or experience instead of working away to buy trinkets and tokens of vapid displays of wealth, we may actually get somewhere as…

This is an old thread, but I just saw your response. I think fitness is a fine goal instrumentally, and way better than just buying crap you don't need, but ultimately your six pack abs are still another trinket or token. The question is what your purpose is. For some people, their main purpose is bringing up the next generation. Others try to build big things. Others try to discover something new. Others want to help create or perpetuate useful organizations. Others want to glorify God.

Now all of that said, if you want your six pack abs so that you can attract a wife so that you can start a family, great. If you want to be fit so that you'll live longer and with more energy so that you can accomplish other things, also great.

My general feeling though is that due to a bunch of changes in the modern world, people have lost outlets for a sense of purpose in their lives, and this is leading to major psychological problems.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#438

Post by andrewjl » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 3:07 AM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #416

andrewjl wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever I see your sentiment - that you are choosing to not have kids because the world sucks and you don't see us solving anything - my immediate reaction is that you deserve no voice whatsoever in how the rest of us decide to solve those problems. No voting, no representation, nothing. Having kids, in a sense, is a bet that we'll figure things out one way or another. What an odd perspective. Are children the onl…

>What an odd perspective. Are children the only way to have skin in the game when it comes to the future? What, specifically, is odd about it? I think the stranger position is the one that allows people to inform policy that affects future generations when they themselves are intentionally not making themselves a part of that future. Put simply: why do you get a voice in what will affect my kids when you think the fu…

> What, specifically, is odd about it? I think the stranger position is the one that allows people to inform policy that affects future generations when they themselves are intentionally not making themselves a part of that future.

It's arbitrary and dogmatic to require having kids in order to have a say in the future, for starters?

> why do you think politicians always advertise the fact that they have a family when they're running for office (or hide the fact that they don't)?

That's not true in Western Europe and increasingly untrue in the US too.

> Because it, at a subconscious level, makes people feel comfortable. "This person's progeny have to live with these policies." It's a trust signal.

As an example I can think of many US politicians who had kids that supported the 2017 tax cuts and opposed measures to decarbonize the US economy. Kids or no kids, they don't care about the future.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#439

Post by oneTbrain23 » Wed, Sep 06, 2023, 12:38 PM UTC

orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

Singapore solved most of those problems decades ago. Essentially: 1. Force children to take care their aged parents. 2. Entice children to buy housing close to their parents. 3. Ensure priority of children living within close of a school to get into that school. 4. Massive subsidies for childcare. Bigger subsidies for working parents and little for those stay home mum dad. This is to avoid situation in the west where you get free money the more unemployed and children you have. 5. Baby bonus tied to the more children you have. Bonus is locked in a special account with very special and limited use for children needs (hospitals, childcare, school fees). Unlike the western countries baby bonus which parents can redirect to buy TV for themselves. 6. Build clusters of community close to each others with facilities to promote society integration. 7. Allowing low cost domestic helpers from neighboring countries with low wages or unemployed. Unlike western countries asking for equal living minimum wages to wrongly think on citizen would rather be domestic helpers or laborer. Use market force to ensure workers able to change jobs as they like to force employers to increase salary to retain workers. 8. Improve low cost healthcare access (though Korean doing this better). 9. Tightly control property market which dont contribute to national productivity. Ensuring everyone has a home and not hoarding homes to bid up prices (one of the downfall of Japan in 80s because allowing overinflated property....Korean and China seems to following Japanese route which can tie up monthly child support money for servicing debts). 10. Superb public transport and highly subsidies transports to ensure the poor can be as mobile as those rich within country. 11. Encouraging more willing to give-birth-foreigners as citizens to damp down arrogant locals of just want to enjoy being singles. 12. Actively tie subsidies with willingness to start family and having more babies throughout every facet of available subsidies. For example subsidies depends on number of households in a home rather than per individual citizen.

This is largely governance issue and not corporate. Korean officials largely undereducated and lack integrity as those in Singapore where they sack officials if even involved in marital affairs NATIONALLY.