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‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#191

Post by mofosyne »

defrost wrote: post #18
fouc wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's becoming more and more common for single men to adopt children. But yeah, expect some scrutiny. Otherwise we failed as a society.

HN is a global forum spanning multiple countries and even more societal mores. To your point though, "we" already failed as a society by not sufficienty scrutinising the bulk of adoptions to ostensibly stable 'ideal' families in decades past. A number of these adoptions turned out fine, many did not.

I wonder if we could have adoption process, where two random person can adopt the same person without being in a relationship? Heck maybe the adoption services can act as pairing services between two potential singles who are willing to act as a parent.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#192

Post by GoodJokes »

em-bee wrote: post #71
basisword wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation t…

i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.

[dead]

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#193

Post by xyzelement »

bell-cot wrote: post #6

Geezer* Perspective... [*If not in the USA, read "Old geezer". Credit: Aachen] Many varieties of "I really regret that I [did|didn't] do X when I was younger" occur in older humans. The stereotype of young men wanting to avoid all the work and commitment of setting down, marrying, and raising children is older than the pyramids. It is obviously not true of all young men, but there's very seldom been a shortage. Sure,…

// I get the sense that "I really regret not having children" is mostly a way of articulating "I am old and socially disconnected and feel lonely and depressed"

This seems like a superficial take. Placating your sadness is a benefit, not the goal, of having kids. You can pop a Prozac and alleviate your sorrows, that's not the same as the deep satisfaction of looking back on a lifetime of meaningful time with your kids and hopefully seeing them grow into good adults and parents themselves.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#194

Post by mofosyne »

em-bee wrote: post #158
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking back I don't think I would have been ready at twenty. Also I couldn't afford a house at the time but could at thirty.

the expectation to need to be able to afford a house before you can have kids is something that is very wrong with society today. (but at the same time the difficulties today to afford a house is also something that has gone wrong. and i suppose the expectation to have a house made more sense when it was still possible to afford one. either way something here needs to change.)

Eh it's rational to expect stable housing before having kids. Even during medevial time, while you don't have much freedom, you have at least the certainty and stability of a place to live and a role to play. I don't think modern society does that anymore.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#195

Post by xyzelement »

mlinhares wrote: post #17

I feel bad for the people that now want to have had children but didn't but as a father of two, if you didn't directly plan to have kids it might have been better that you didn't, kids take a lot of work, you have to be in the right place to do it. I used to be the person that said "yeah, go have kids" and now I'm "only do it if you're completely sure its what you want" because if you're not it's the children sufferi…

// I used to be the person that said "yeah, go have kids" and now I'm "only do it if you're completely sure its what you want" because if you're not it's the children suffering through it.

I think more people are ready to be good parents despite doubts that your post implies. If you are completely broke, drug addicted, violent, etc - then yes you should work on those things first. Otherwise, if you're anything like a mainstream member of society you're probably ready and capable.

I found that my "ability" to be a dad switched the moment the kids arrived. Most of us do our best when the occasion demands it and being a dad elevates what is asked of you in the best of ways. Even things that would seem like nigh mares to a single version of myself (eg: changing diapers), feel totally fine - like I am doing exactly what I should be doing right now.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#197

Post by xyzelement »

bradlys wrote: post #186
WXLCKNO wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up poor and financial anxiety was real, I just couldn't fathom how people were living with it. I could barely tolerate it for myself, let alone bring kids into the world while being uncertain. It didn't feel like anything condescending, just a lack of understanding. Now I'm very well off and could retire (fat fire equivalent) at 34 and I do want kids.

I grew up similarly and am also well off financially now too at 33. Yet, I can’t find a woman who would want to have kids with me. The market has changed. Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.

// Looks is paramount - I worked so hard to be financially stable and didn’t realize that it wasn’t my parents financial situation that had fucked me over so badly in life - it was their dogshit genetics that made me ugly.

A guy with a job and a gym membership is more attractive than 90% of men by default. Do you really have a "looks problem" that wouldn't be resolved in 12 months by actively working out, eating well, a good haircut and a great wardrobe?

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#198

Post by xyzelement »

basisword wrote: post #28

Interesting article. I think part of the issue is education. We get lots of education and resources to help us not have children. But the logistics of finding a partner, maybe marrying, maybe buying property, and then starting to have children is ignored. You very suddenly reach an age as a man where you realise these things are all going to take time and that might be time you don't have. Or time your partner doesn'…

It's similar to how people are now fatter and sicker despite access to more information and options vs prior generations. The limited choices before "happened to" line up to what is for many a healthier diet and exercise pattern.

Similar with kids - there's less pressure to have kids now and easier excuses not to - but that road takes you to not a good place in the long run.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#199

Post by xyzelement »

sershe wrote: post #196

One thing that definitely skews the reporting of this is that it's socially acceptable to admit you regret not having kids, but it's absolutely not socially acceptable to admit you regret having kids.

Do you expect that this skew would meaningfully alter the conclusion? That there are many men on their deathbed who wish they had more time for brunch in their life vs the hard work of parenting?

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#200

Post by xyzelement »

jokoon wrote: post #44

I'm 38, and I'm socially unable to meet women outside of online dating, I've had enough girlfriend and a long, 8 years relationship (she did not want kids). I don't really understand that social norm of having kids. I can understand sexual desire, but is there really a "desire to have kids"? Is having kids really some kind of moral imperative to "continue the human species"? Anyway, women have high standards, which i…

// is there really a "desire to have kids"?

Yes, people recognize that you get to have a lot of fun times with your kids and that even the "hard" parts make sense when you are in it. Your daily life has structure and purpose which is beneficial. People have an obvious instinct for this and are able to recognize this in others. If you met many parents who weren't happy they had kids, you'd know.

Also, for those of us who value hard work and long-term impact, kids provide an amazing opportunity for that. I get to influence how these people turn out, and in turn that prolongs my impact on the world beyond my lifetime. I want that.

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