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‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#141

Post by anon291 »

barrysteve wrote: post #70

And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain. This society is completely broken. My craving to return to the 1980s and 1990s is just getting worse and worse. We replaced so many functioning structures with an ocean of mirages. I legitmately have not seen an adult man who looks and acts like an authority figure should, in about fifteen years. I literally cannot take 90% of 'autho…

> Churches just want you to do their thing, with zero practical application in the short term.

You say

> And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain.

The truth is some decisions take a long time to 'make good'. I can assure you any father having kids will, at times when his newborn is fussy, his toddler annoying, not see the wisdom or 'practical application in the short term' of his decision to have kids.

You clearly realize that there are some things society ought to tell people that they will only understand at a very large picture.

Yet you then criticize churches, the source of many traditions in the West that I'm guessing you like, as having zero practical application in the short term.

I would suggest you change that and give it a real go.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#142

Post by basisword »

em-bee wrote: post #71
basisword wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like most young men have always wanted to extend their youth and avoid the responsibility that family life would bring. However, until recently (with easy access to birth control, abortion, and proper education) this wasn't really possible. You would accidentally have a child and be forced into the lifestyle you were trying to avoid. And most of the time things worked out and you were forced into a situation t…

i think the smart thing to do is to have kids when you are 20 and then enjoy life when you are 40. at that time you are much better off financially (unless you live in a country where you have to pay for your kids education maybe) which gives you a lot more freedom to explore your interests.

There's trades offs either way. Personally, I would rather have had the experiences I had in my 20's. Anything you can do in your 40's, you can do in your 50's or 60's. Some of the crazy (good and bad) you can experience in your 20's you don't get a chance to experience again. But, it's a trade off still.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#143

Post by anon291 »

alphabettsy wrote: post #84
barrysteve wrote: post #70

And all the warning they get is a random guardian article in the slew of media rain. This society is completely broken. My craving to return to the 1980s and 1990s is just getting worse and worse. We replaced so many functioning structures with an ocean of mirages. I legitmately have not seen an adult man who looks and acts like an authority figure should, in about fifteen years. I literally cannot take 90% of 'autho…

> Society used to be predictable and rational No. It really wasn’t. Read some history books. There was nothing uniquely great about the 80s-90s. Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature.

> Impending global lockdown? You might be well served from a lot less time online and more time with your fellow humans or nature.

Please stop trying to gaslight people. I too would have thought such a thing impossible in 2019/early 2020, but we saw that that is not beyond our leaders. Many people in the world have a lot of trauma from the government-imposed lockdowns and subsequent seizing of basic human freedoms. Unfortunately, one is often unable to mention this trauma without being dismissed as a kook, which you are doing to OP.

Please stop. Global lockdowns are now a thing that has happened and -- given the right circumstances -- may happen again. Given how recent it was, people should be cut some slack, even if you perceive them to be hyper-vigilant.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#144

Post by xyzelement »

wkat4242 wrote: post #88

I'm surprised there's so many men that genuinely want kids. I've never had that desire, I know it's more commonplace in women. Most of my friends who have them were basically doing it for the wife even though they loved their kids when they appeared on the scene. But it was not something they would have chosen. But anyway good for them. I'm glad I never had any and I have no regrets.

// doing it for the wife even though they loved their kids when they appeared on the scene

Are you sure? People aren't stupid and then they marry a woman who wants kids and then agree to have kids with her, they are not doing it against their will.

The fact that they are happy and love the kids once they arrive suggests they had room inside them for that happiness and love to begin with and they just allowed the wife to be the impetus to it.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#145

Post by sillyfluke »

MaKey wrote: post #58
bsagdiyev wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure by bt4u's comment is dead, but I've had that exact situation happen to me. Been accused of trying to steal a child while taking my son to the playground. It is an actual thing and it sucks.

Is this an American thing? I can't imagine that happening in Europe, but maybe I'm just a bit naive.

Yes, this is completely an American thing. I experienced it first hand and it's hilarious. Hilarious in that it's so pathetically predicable that I can predict there's going to be a "situation" before it unfolds and am able to avoid it. But it's absolutely batshit crazy how easily it happens.

No way this happens in europe. Helicopter americans probably claim there is more child trafficking and kidnapping in europe or something. Yeah, ok. These people watch so many child kidnapping movies and documentaries they don't know which way is up anymore.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#146

Post by anon291 »

tr888 wrote: post #33
10g1k wrote: post #27

Evolution. It's programmed into you, the drive to reproduce. And that's a good thing. You won't understand how important and amazing it is until you have your own kid. NOTHING is more important.

I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.

> I really hate this attitude. It's a condescending and patronising attitude - that men who don't (or can't) have children are less. Are you really saying that absolutely nothing is more important than reproducing? For everyone, in every situation? I sincerely hope not.

Of course not. Humans (including men) show parental care to increase their young's fitness as well. Human males are not solely obsessed with the mechanics of reproduction (as many animals are). Instead, most men also want to pass something on to their children that will set them up for success, and if you look at it, throughout history, most men were striving for this and most social structures evolved to make this possible.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#147

Post by polski-g »

alphabettsy wrote: post #94
xyzzy4747 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who just had a kid, I agree. You don’t have to overthink it. At the end of the day all they need is a calorie surplus and shelter. That’s it. Everything else is a bonus. As a parent you can put as much or as little work into it as you like. Time is going to pass and they’ll grow older regardless. It’s not like a tech startup where you have to put work in or it’ll crash and burn.

Bad parenting or neglectful often produces bad outcomes does it not? This is unfortunate to read. Of course everything doesn’t need to be planned, but food and shelter are the bare minimum.

Not really. The most meaningful outcome for a child's life is the mate selection of the parents. Parenting generally has no effect; see the letter sent to Maher as a really good synopsis: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/2011/11/16/taming-the-tiger-mo...

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#148

Post by xyzelement »

TheChaplain wrote: post #45

Spending a lot more time with my aging father, I see a certain joy and pride in him whenever we are doing things together, a feeling that I will myself never know. Instead I chose career, travel and education early in life, and while I do not regret it.. Later in life I noticed that for me such accomplishments feel worth about 5 minutes of cold talk in social events, even more among those who warmly talk about their…

// while I do not regret it... feel worth about 5 minutes of cold talk... the choices I made left a feeling of emptiness..

I appreciate your candor and vulnerability with us here. But I can't help but read a good amount of regret in your post, in line with the article.

As middle aged / older guys, there's significance to the message we send out. Perhaps someone reading your post will be inspired to pause and re evaluate their choice based on what you wrote. Thank yku.

Re: ‘I just assumed it would happen’: the unspoken grief of childless men

#150

Post by francisofascii »

delineator wrote: post #31

Don't just assume... 1. Create bumble account 2. Filter for Age: > 35, Kids: "Want someday" 3. Swipe right

Well, that is one action people could take. Agree that you should stop waiting and start a plan and start taking steps to make something happen. If it doesn't work, at least you tried.
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