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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#591

Post by Tichy »

omgsean wrote: post #205
Tichy wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a supplement to those posts, I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly (and women with low cut dresses especially). I mean it seems possible that the "I know where I'm sitting" guy was simply crap at giving compliments, rather than a sexist jerk. Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt wi…

>Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow. Not at work.

Well it is common advice to not date in the work place. The reality is that a lot of couples meet in the work place, though. II just googled and found http://www.savvysugar.com/More-Couples-Meet-Work-Than-Colleg... which claims 18% of committed couples met at their work place, va 14% who met at college (which is actually a kind of work place, too).

So while it sounds like good advice on the surface to not date colleagues, it just isn't realistic.

Re: "Lighten up"

#592

Post by paganel »

> All I did was make a joke about you needing to be in the kitchen!

I'm a fellow programmer, and a guy (if it matters), but whenever I hear this exact comment (luckily for me I didn't hear it from any of my present or past co-workers, only distant acquaintances) I almost literally start to boil. Are some of us men really, I mean really that stupid?!

Again, luckily for me most of my career as a programmer has been spent in small non-software specific firms (5 to 20 people) where the female to male ratio was in most cases higher than 50%, so that I didn't have to hear this misogynistic and stupid crap.

Re: "Lighten up"

#593

Post by einhverfr »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #234
tptacek wrote: post #11

It's a big deal. Not "lightening up" is a service to the company (and, I guess, the whole industry). I'm married to a woman who has put up with a lot of shit in this field (for instance: job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; I was, fortunately for all involved, in a different state when that happened) and am the father of an absurdly intelligent 10 year old girl who will, with…

job interviews in which she was shown pictures of her interviewer's bare ass; What the hell? How on earth did that happen, I really can't imagine why anyone would think that doing this could possibly have a positive income without having drunk a minimum of 5 beers.

You know here's the thing. I have had female co-workers complain about being asked in interviews at other companies as to whether they'd quit their jobs (rather than taking paid/unpaid leave) if they had kids. I would quietly listen, take notes in my heads as to which companies to avoid working at.

There are two things that come to mind.

These companies are ones where shit floats so to speak and nothing good will come out of those for anybody.

They are also usually ones who feel unusually entitled to way too much of their workers' personal lives generally.

Re: "Lighten up"

#594

Post by toyg »

oodalolly wrote: post #584
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

I've never understood this question. "Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention?" Women wear low cut dresses because they feel good in them, because they feel they look good in them. Showing off your breasts, if you consider them an attractive part of you, is like showing off your face, or arms, or legs. This question is like asking, "Why do women brush their hair, if not to attract male atte…

Actually, women always get dressed with men in mind; it's just that it's so ingrained, they don't really think about it.

Their concept of "looking good" is shaped by magazines and tv shows (still much more so that men, on average); and if you look at your average magazine, you'll see oozes of sex emanating from advertising and content. The concept of "looking good" in western society is equivalent to "looking sexy/desiderable to the opposite sex". Why would women's skirts emphasize one's ass otherwise? When in a suit/tailleur (pardon me, I'm not a tailor), it's among the most professional attires a woman can wear, and it's been sexualized to high heaven. Why? Because it makes women feel powerful. And why do they feel powerful? Because they can attract men, and that's what society tells them their power should be.

So whoever tells herself that she wants to look good "to feel better" is, unconsciously, accepting sexism in society almost as much as one who'd crack a joke about it; she's just doing at a much deeper level, one which women still refuse to deal with (it would mean dropping the whole "fashion" industry like a hot potato).

Re: "Lighten up"

#596

Post by natep »

hengli wrote: post #355

While subtle discrimination is really bad, how does she get from low cut dress to slut? That's surely something she came up with herself and nothing like that the guy intended. The guy certainly doesn't want her to wrap herself up in sweaters, why does she feel like that's how she should respond? I feel like there's a huge gulf between second and third wave feminists. Modern ones would find the above comment empoweri…

My interpretation is that she felt the low cut dress comment was derogatory (like the term slut), and that the man, by sitting across from her in order to sexualize her, thought he was doing what she (the slut) wanted ("why else do women dress nice?"). If she weren't a slut, then her dress would be a dress, and there would be no reason to call attention to it, especially not in that way.

The guy doesn't want her to wrap herself in sweaters only because he wants to continue to objectify her, not because he sees her as a person that has the right to dress comfortably (as long as it's still appropriate).

What's empowering about being a sexual object if you want to be a programmer?

Re: "Lighten up"

#597

Post by gojomo »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #336
Swizec wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public perception (as judged by art, which usually represents a slightly caricatured version of reality) seems to imply that your attractiveness and the appropriateness of your comments are inversely correlated. That is to say, if you tell a woman she looks good, it will be a compliment if she likes you, a sexist remark if she doesn't.

There's a running joke on Reddit that the best way to avoid being labeled creepy when hitting on a woman is to: 1. Be attractive. 2. Don't be unattractive. And there is definitely truth to this.

...which is lifted from an SNL skit, with Tom Brady:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY

Re: "Lighten up"

#598

Post by hef19898 »

yelsgib wrote: post #246
kevinalexbrown wrote: post #140

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addre…

In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

Stupid question, but what is a "pot luck"?

Edit: Question answered! The ability to read actually is an advantage! ;-)

Re: "Lighten up"

#599

Post by Tichy »

djcapelis wrote: post #230
Tichy wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.

I find it hard to believe that you think women should have to dress differently so as not to attract a running commentary.

I didn't say any such thing. What you wear projects a message, though. I didn't say that it gives people the right to treat you in whatever way, but it might be worth thinking about.

Some companies choose to introduce uniforms...

Re: "Lighten up"

#600

Post by toyg »

adrianparsons wrote: post #487
stdbrouw wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a kernel of truth to this, but it's also somewhat disingenuous. At work, as a male, I can't wear anything too casual because it's unprofessional or might mark me as a hipster, but I also can't suit up every day unless I want to be seen as a corporate drone. I have to find that perfect middle ground -- between professional and hip. Every single day.

Woah, not the same at all. If you wear a low cut top in a room full of guys and are seen by some as a sexual object, it's taken on a new dimension. I appreciate the subtleties of male dress (I deal with the same issues you raised), but the pressure isn't the same.

But who's putting all this pressure on women? As a professional geek, I couldn't care less what my colleagues are wearing -- male or female alike. At my previous job, most managers (including mine) were women; do you think they were judging their "badly-dressed" female subordinates more harshly than their male subordinates? If yes, why would they do that, knowing all too well how hard it is to strike that "perfect middle ground"?

Most of this pressure is self-inflicted. These problems won't go away until women stop listening to the idiotic fashion industry; if they don't, it's because their issues are less rational than they make them out to be.

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