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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#521

Post by hnal943 »

hudibras wrote: post #85
logjam wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. If any of her sexist male coworkers made jokes about "kitchen and stuff" in my office, I'd fire them on the spot for cause and take pains to make sure other organizations knew in detail about their behavior. If you accused a victim of sexual harassment of "whining" in my office like you just did here on HN, I'd fire you on the spot and make sure other organizations knew in detail about your behavior. Guess then…

Finally, someone with experience in the real world. Comments about "staying in the kitchen" or talking about a co-worker's breasts (which is what the "low-cut dress" comment is really about) will get you fired on the spot in many or most jobs in America. And it also happens to be the correct response.

I agree with you. And since this is the case, it's amazing to me that the OP didn't simply find another job where people would treat her with civility. Anyone can wind up working with jerks. Most of us don't blame the system and quit being productive.

Re: "Lighten up"

#522

Post by doidydoidy »

mhartl wrote: post #169
InclinedPlane wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be acceptable to use the N-word in the workplace. Casually. With seriousness. Things change. Fuck acceptance.

Acceptance is the only rational response when you lack sufficient power to effect change.

"Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Re: "Lighten up"

#523

Post by strix_varius »

pingswept wrote: post #26
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

There's definitely an overlap between funny jokes and 'sexual' jokes. The OP seems to have a hair trigger for 'sexist,' to the point where I suspect her co-workers weren't sad to see her leave.

Re: "Lighten up"

#524

Post by strix_varius »

crusso wrote: post #112
pingswept wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."

Agreed.

Re: "Lighten up"

#525

Post by yycom »

astine wrote: post #255
mtrimpe wrote: post #138

Being an ex-queer (bi ;) I've had to put up with my fair share of subtle jabs and general discomfort with my presence. After a long time I figured out that the only thing that worked for me was to be more dominant than 'them.' The thing is, women (and queers) are fucking powerful, they're just powerful in a different way. Ironically, but not unsurprisingly, women are taught not to use this power as it's 'inappropriat…

"In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.'" It is nasty. It's called passive-aggressiveness and it undermines honest communication in th…

No, it's very much active aggression, only covert. See also "politics".

Re: "Lighten up"

#526

Post by strix_varius »

lhnn wrote: post #404
VMG wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banter should be mutual. This extends to males as well. If your "witty remarks" aren't reciprocated, stop.

This is the key, and the most valuable comment in this entire thread. Just like making moves on people, the smartest tactic is to go as far as you feel like going, carefully, until it's not symmetrical. The women I work with in IT have had incredibly adult jokes made about them and vice-versa, because it's known and comfortable. If it wasn't mutual, you should know to back off, because they aren't going to lighten up…

This applies regardless of gender or situation.

I haven't shared the OP's experience of software developers being oblivious to asymmetrical interactions. Most nerds I know are very good at this.

Re: "Lighten up"

#527

Post by scott_s »

knightenvy wrote: post #482
scott_s wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical appraisals of another person's attractiveness do not belong in the work place. It puts people in awkward positions, and introduces power asymmetries. And yes, I do not want people at work to say such things about me, regardless of gender.

Well, I differ there. If someone gives me a compliment, I appreciate it. Usually it is about a hair cut, or a choice piece of clothing. I never took it as a sexual advance. However your post bring up an important subject. There are differing opinions here. Why is one opinion more justified than the other in the work place? For example: Why should I not be able to give a genuine complement about let say a woman's shoe…

"Attractiveness" implies compliments that are suggestive. But, personally, I veer away from anything along those lines because I do not know what my colleagues are comfortable with. It is not my place to assume.

Re: "Lighten up"

#528

Post by strix_varius »

anon808 wrote: post #156
crusso wrote: post #13

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humor…

does your office environment where you can joke around and have fun include racist humor?

By saying 'racist' humor, rather than 'humor about race,' you turned your question rhetorical.

However, humor about race, gender, age, etc can all be hilarious, even in an office.

Re: "Lighten up"

#529

Post by tptacek »

jQueryIsAwesome wrote: post #485
astine wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.'" It is nasty. It's called passive-aggressiveness and it undermines honest communication in th…

> The fact that you think this form of behavior is more natural to women than men is actually quite sexist. All gender generalizations are sexist? That doesn't make sense; there are generalizations that are true even if that population doesn't like those generalizations (ie: women are physically less capable than men) and in some situations it may be important to have them in mind. What could be sexist is to speak ou…

For the most part, yes. Gender generalizations more or less define the concept "sexist". And his "boy's game" "girl's game" thing is a good example of that.

Re: "Lighten up"

#530

Post by tptacek »

mtrimpe wrote: post #470
astine wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In the workplace, open competitiveness and overt displays of hierarchical dominance (boy's game) are perfectly acceptable, but figuring out the motives of your enemy's friends, observing when he breaks them and subtly informing those friends about that in order to weaken his support base (girl's game) is considered 'nasty.'" It is nasty. It's called passive-aggressiveness and it undermines honest communication in th…

Argh, I knew I shouldn't have used a broad description of male behavior and narrow one of the female. The male equivalent of what I described here would be when two managers shouting against each other in ever stronger terms that they are more important and have more authority than the other until one backs down. Equally destructive I believe, but something you'd never see a woman engage in.

I think you're writing these comments with the best intentions but also that you should probably stop digging.
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