An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve • Hacker News Board

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#201

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 5:59 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #65

dudus wrote: post #18

When the subject came up at Google I didn't know much to contribute to the discussion. I noticed white people were against it while Indians had a more nuanced approach. But I always thought the way the predominant Indian leadership, Sundar included, completely ignored the matter was weird. That spoke louder than anything else they could have said.

White people were against caste discrimination, or white people were against doing anything about caste discrimination? And what was the nuance of the Indian approach you saw? E.g. you can say "racism is bad and racial discrimination in employment and housing and services should be illegal" and you don't really need a whole lot of nuance. Is there something about Indian caste discrimination that requires nuance here,…

[deleted]

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#202

Post by jonmayer » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 5:59 PM UTC

I only have one anecdote. At my previous job, I vividly recall my office mate being bullied and ordered about by a more junior peer. After said peer left, he would breathe a deep sigh and turn to me and say: "Brahmin motherf*cker."

This bill seems overdue to me.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#203

Post by callalex » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:01 PM UTC

breadwinner wrote: post #75

Some states in India are less advanced than others. To those who are from the more advanced states, this supposed caste discrimination is a nothingburger, and they see such accusations as unfairly tarnishing the image of their community. See [1] for example. But to those from less advanced regions (those where education has not made inroads... some regions have less than 60% literacy rate), this is still an issue. [1…

It’s not clear to me that the link to education is so tight. After all, it is the top executives of tech companies (highly educated people) who have been the subject of lawsuits for discriminating by caste.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#204

Post by mkoubaa » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:01 PM UTC

uptownfunk wrote: post #127

lannisterstark wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just staying in unoccupied summer homes of rich white friends. Class divide is not caste divide. Imagine if you went to the market, and you touched someone, and immediately, their parents/people around them flicked drops of water at them to purify them because they got touched by an untouchable. Do you experience THAT in the US? Do you know how humiliating that is? You're being absurd at equating the two.

It’s actually worse. Why are we focusing on caste, which is very isolated, when class divide and class discrimination is a much worse problem. Probably because the upper class who would be adversely affected by any efforts to fix it are the ones in control of driving the agenda. We’re too focused on idealistic feel good politics and not focused enough issues that are affecting most of the nation

Are you seriously alleging that class discrimination is a problem that society is ignoring? Did the 20th century simply not happen?

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#205

Post by rawgabbit » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

Camry wrote: post #192

rawgabbit wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought SE Asian referred to Laos Cambodia Vietnam Myanmar and Indonesia? Now it also refers to India?

My understanding is that Indians are South Asians and SEA refers to what was once known as Indochina.

That was my question. The post above says SE Asian refers to Hindu/Indian? I believe SE Asian are Buddhist.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#206

Post by crazygringo » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:03 PM UTC

blahblahblack wrote: post #162

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

I am an Indian who oppose this bill, because of multiple reasons. A good amount of Indian population here in America is form a Hindu background. And the majority of that population doesn't really believe in a caste system. I have never ever ill intentionally asked anyone their caste. But the way the bill is worded, It implies that anyone in my lineage can be sued based on my perceived caste (based on allegations of c…

The problem with that argument is that it's the same one used to justify not having laws against racial discrimination or gender discrimination.

E.g. you can be a white manager and not a racist and promote a better-qualified white employee rather than a less-qualified black one, and then be sued. "Just because I automatically found myself being white!"

The solution is simply to have good documentation around the reasons for who you're promoting, and then the suit will lose. (In 99.99% of cases, the suit won't happen in the first place because no lawyer would take it if there isn't hard evidence of actual racial discrimination.) This kind of documentation is generally pretty easy, and it's good business practice besides.

This has worked pretty well at making a big dent in race-based discrimination. Why should it be any different for caste-based discrimination?

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#207

Post by astrobe_ » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

KenArrari wrote: post #58

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

I do kind of get the argument that this creates a category of crime that only indians can be convicted (or even accused) of. At least, nobody is openly saying that they're opposing the law because they want to do caste discrimination but if someone wants to be taken seriously they need to give a good answer for how they'll be addressing it.

If as a right-handed person I discriminate against left-handed persons, I also both create yet another silly criteria for discrimination and a crime ex nihilo, and I am the only one to blame for that - not the cop that arrests me, nor the judge that correctly finds me guilty, nor the law itself as it follows the principles the universal declaration of human rights (which was both voted by the US and India, BTW). The argument is fallacious.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#208

Post by dudus » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:04 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #65

dudus wrote: post #18

When the subject came up at Google I didn't know much to contribute to the discussion. I noticed white people were against it while Indians had a more nuanced approach. But I always thought the way the predominant Indian leadership, Sundar included, completely ignored the matter was weird. That spoke louder than anything else they could have said.

White people were against caste discrimination, or white people were against doing anything about caste discrimination? And what was the nuance of the Indian approach you saw? E.g. you can say "racism is bad and racial discrimination in employment and housing and services should be illegal" and you don't really need a whole lot of nuance. Is there something about Indian caste discrimination that requires nuance here,…

Clarifying:

White people were against caste discrimination.

From Indians I heard several responses, from against castes to indifferent. But I never heard someone defending it.

Eg: Some said it wasn't an issue, some said it was a big issue that hardly affect Indians in America. Some said India is too big and diverse and that castes only matter in the more undeveloped regions of India.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#209

Post by blahblahblack » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

mkoubaa wrote: post #197

blahblahblack wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am an Indian who oppose this bill, because of multiple reasons. A good amount of Indian population here in America is form a Hindu background. And the majority of that population doesn't really believe in a caste system. I have never ever ill intentionally asked anyone their caste. But the way the bill is worded, It implies that anyone in my lineage can be sued based on my perceived caste (based on allegations of c…

"But the way the bill is worded, It implies that anyone in my lineage can be sued based on my perceived caste (based on allegations of course) that is inherited to me against my will." Not a legal expert but this is extremely far fetched. You must have a great deal of contempt for the US legal system if you think this.

It's not just about legal system being abused. I would like to see casteism dissolved from the world. Grew up in India and I was taught to be caste agnostic. I have seen my parents being friends with and working with people of all castes. I grew up pretty liberal. This bill is trying to attack on a problem that does not exist on the same scale as any of the other discriminatory issues that we ever talk about here in America. We are creating a problem out of our imagination. The kind of arguments that I see from people on internet including this forum are hilarious. People say that The people of highcast would say vegetarians only for the room advertisement or someone can be denied of a marriage proposal based on their caste. That's all really stupid talk. Being a vegetarianism is a global phenomena. Just because I'm a Hindu doesn't mean I am trying to discriminate against someone who eats non vegetarian because they are low caste and I'm not a low caste (again in perception only). For a matter like marriage, it is extremely personal and people are allowed to decline on proposals based on their personal choice.

Re: An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has touched a nerve

#210

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Sep 04, 2023, 6:05 PM UTC

KenArrari wrote: post #58

whats_a_quasar wrote: post #16

I'm legitimately confused about the strength of opposition to the measure. It seems like it should be a small, uncontroversial, update to protected categories. Are people opposing the term "caste" appearing in U.S. law? Is the concern that the law will cause other Americans to judge Indian/Nepalese/Sri Lankan communities? If anyone here can explain the emotional significance of the bill to someone who is not South As…

I do kind of get the argument that this creates a category of crime that only indians can be convicted (or even accused) of. At least, nobody is openly saying that they're opposing the law because they want to do caste discrimination but if someone wants to be taken seriously they need to give a good answer for how they'll be addressing it.

[deleted]